This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2014-11-26 02:35:42] rhk : i have an open order, but when i click cancel its not cancelled
[2014-11-26 02:36:28] rhk : tried from both 'all open orders' and 'open orders zbtf15' tabs
[2014-11-26 02:38:02] rhk : browser console gives an error
[2014-11-26 02:38:02] rhk : DELETE https://www.bitmex.com/api/v1/order 404 (Not Found)
[2014-11-26 02:39:12] rhk : after i close & reopen tab the order is gone
[2014-11-26 02:43:27] rhk : joequant: no.. there is only one market maker quoting all prices on the screen at the moment. they regularly pull all the quotes though.
[2014-11-26 02:46:10] BitMEX_Arthur : rhk: thanks for that, if that happens again pls send us a screenshot to support@bitmex.com will look into that
[2014-11-26 02:52:48] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: sure. i sent the stack trace through to sam
[2014-11-26 02:52:59] BitMEX_Arthur : ok great
[2014-11-26 02:54:42] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: Realtime updates come through WebSocket, seems like your browser missed the update telling it that order was canceled
[2014-11-26 02:56:47] joequant : 你好。 checking if trollbox can handle unicode
[2014-11-26 04:25:58] BitMEX_Wally : :xbt:
[2014-11-26 04:26:00] BitMEX_Wally : :btc:
[2014-11-26 04:26:19] BitMEX_Wally : &btc
[2014-11-26 04:26:29] BitMEX_Wally : &btc;
[2014-11-26 04:26:34] BitMEX_Wally : Got there eventually :)
[2014-11-26 04:26:54] BitMEX_Wally : &btc followed by a semicolon
[2014-11-26 07:27:35] cumberland : Considering BitMEX's target audience are "commercial hedgers, miners, payment processors, and any other parties that have a need for serious derivatives products"....the contract size is too small by a factor of 10,000
[2014-11-26 07:29:24] BitMEX_Arthur : cumberland: this is the uber mini contract but we will re evaluate as the platform grows
[2014-11-26 08:16:58] BitMEX_Arthur : here comes the shakeout
[2014-11-26 09:34:13] void : Please change to Bitcoin
[2014-11-26 09:34:17] void : so small.
[2014-11-26 09:34:29] void : Change to bitcoin directly.
[2014-11-26 09:35:05] void : and the trasaction fee is higher than icbit...
[2014-11-26 09:36:29] BitMEX_Sam : It's a very different product than icbit, and we don't charge daily funding fees, which are the bulk of their fee structure.
[2014-11-26 09:36:52] void : icbit didn't charge daily funding fee.
[2014-11-26 09:36:57] void : btc.sx charge this.
[2014-11-26 09:37:12] void : and china btc futures didn't charge also. It's ok.
[2014-11-26 09:38:29] BitMEX_Sam : Depends on the contract, you're right though, it looks like they are moving to a different structure recently
[2014-11-26 09:40:33] void : looks like buy and sell bitcoin is more suitable for bitmex.
[2014-11-26 09:40:42] void : Or at least 100$
[2014-11-26 09:40:52] void : okcoin use 100$
[2014-11-26 09:40:55] void : 796 use bitcoin
[2014-11-26 09:53:08] BitMEX_Arthur : void: you want a bigger contract size in Bitcoin?
[2014-11-26 09:53:25] void : surely.
[2014-11-26 09:53:29] BitMEX_Arthur : ok
[2014-11-26 09:53:43] void : It's so small now.
[2014-11-26 09:54:23] void : Seem you guys can come to hk bitcoin meeting on friday A lot of chinese trader will join this conforence.
[2014-11-26 09:54:48] BitMEX_Arthur : one of the co-founders will be in attendance on saturday
[2014-11-26 09:58:45] BitMEX_Arthur : void: if you are going to be there please send us a mail to support@bitmex.com so we can meet you in person
[2014-11-26 09:59:36] void : Arthur.we have email contact before. I have a topic about bitcoin future at Saturday.
[2014-11-26 10:00:02] BitMEX_Wally : I'll be there
[2014-11-26 10:00:11] BitMEX_Wally : What's the schedule for Friday? I'm free in the evening
[2014-11-26 10:01:05] void : You can find the schedule on the http://www.globalbtcsummit.com/
[2014-11-26 11:57:54] joequant : I'll be there
[2014-11-26 14:25:33] BitMEX_Sam : Permanent API keys are now live - thanks for your suggestions everyone.
[2014-11-26 14:44:29] rhk : BitMEX_Sam: so we can create as many API keys as we need?
[2014-11-26 14:44:42] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Yes, and they can be restricted to CIDR ranges
[2014-11-26 14:44:50] BitMEX_Sam : For now, please use the command line client in the market-maker repository
[2014-11-26 14:44:56] BitMEX_Sam : I'll be adding a UI for it later on.
[2014-11-26 14:58:08] floopfloop : hmm, no confirm email?
[2014-11-26 14:59:59] BitMEX_Arthur : floopfloop: ?
[2014-11-26 15:03:52] floopfloop : I made a withdraw
[2014-11-26 15:04:24] floopfloop : its pending, but I have no email condirm
[2014-11-26 15:04:43] BitMEX_Arthur : thx for alerting us, we'll see what happened
[2014-11-26 15:41:20] floopfloop : also
[2014-11-26 15:41:25] floopfloop : I got my funds back
[2014-11-26 15:41:34] floopfloop : it wont let me withdraw exact funds
[2014-11-26 15:41:44] floopfloop : .0001 off I think
[2014-11-26 15:42:02] floopfloop : It wont allow me to withdraw maximum, even if I include fee.
[2014-11-26 15:44:09] BitMEX_Arthur : can you take a screenshot please thanks
[2014-11-26 15:44:17] BitMEX_Arthur : and send to support@bitmex.com
[2014-11-26 15:44:18] BitMEX_Arthur : thanks
[2014-11-26 16:12:21] BitMEX_Sam : floopfloop: You have an email
[2014-11-26 18:30:49] jon : congrts for the launch again
[2014-11-26 18:31:06] jon : hope the volume will rapidly grow up
[2014-11-27 01:59:23] primevalsoup : i have a couple of questions which were not immediately obvious (to me at least) from reading your docs
[2014-11-27 01:59:53] primevalsoup : when paying out PL in XBT at settlement what rate do you use to convert USD P&L to XBT?
[2014-11-27 01:59:59] primevalsoup : the settlement price?
[2014-11-27 02:00:53] primevalsoup : other exchange (796) use a fixed multiplier which means that i end up with gamma exposure when putting on a hedge position which is not always desireable
[2014-11-27 02:02:08] primevalsoup : also if i hold contract to settlement will you charge me commission for settling the contract? or do i only pay when actually buying/selling?
[2014-11-27 02:05:38] rhk : @BitMEX_Arthur i assume settlement fees are charged at 'taker' rates? can you confirm?
[2014-11-27 02:30:25] BitMEX_Arthur : primevalsoup: hi you are correct the multiplier is in XBT so you do have USD gamma
[2014-11-27 02:39:37] primevalsoup : thanks arthur, i see now that it's an XBT multiplier
[2014-11-27 02:40:02] primevalsoup : also if you could confirm the settlement fees that would be great
[2014-11-27 02:59:16] BitMEX_Arthur : yes will do
[2014-11-27 03:00:01] BitMEX_Arthur : primevalsoup: which type of future do u prefer?
[2014-11-27 03:01:23] primevalsoup : im actually interested in both
[2014-11-27 03:01:59] primevalsoup : if i can get "cheap" gamma
[2014-11-27 03:02:23] primevalsoup : then i'd put on a position using the quanto futures
[2014-11-27 03:02:45] primevalsoup : and dynamically hedge to capture the volatility
[2014-11-27 03:03:09] primevalsoup : i also am running a marketmaking book and am interested in non-quanto futures to hedge my BTC inventory
[2014-11-27 03:03:10] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah that will be an interesting strategy
[2014-11-27 03:03:26] primevalsoup : right now im selling on swap to myself on Bitfinex
[2014-11-27 03:03:29] primevalsoup : so sell on swap
[2014-11-27 03:03:31] BitMEX_Arthur : so would you be interested in mm for us
[2014-11-27 03:03:32] primevalsoup : by on the exchnage
[2014-11-27 03:03:42] primevalsoup : buy on the exchange
[2014-11-27 03:03:59] primevalsoup : to get a perfectly hedge inventory
[2014-11-27 03:04:09] primevalsoup : but it may be more effecient to use futures for this
[2014-11-27 03:04:21] primevalsoup : yes i would be interested
[2014-11-27 03:04:33] primevalsoup : in market making on your exchange
[2014-11-27 03:04:59] BitMEX_Arthur : ok cool what is your email i can send you the docs, the fees are much cheaper for market makers
[2014-11-27 03:05:10] primevalsoup : ill emial it to you
[2014-11-27 03:05:13] primevalsoup : info@bitmex.com?
[2014-11-27 03:05:22] BitMEX_Arthur : yes
[2014-11-27 03:05:29] primevalsoup : k will shoot it over now
[2014-11-27 03:09:18] BitMEX_Arthur : got it we are finalising the doc today and i will send it over to you
[2014-11-27 03:09:25] BitMEX_Arthur : where are you based?
[2014-11-27 03:30:00] rhk : i just submitted buy orders (twice) they say "submitted" but never appear in orderbook or order list
[2014-11-27 03:30:27] rhk : only appear after I refresh (F5) the whole page
[2014-11-27 03:31:24] BitMEX_Arthur : ok will look into the web socket connection thanks
[2014-11-27 03:33:45] BitMEX_Arthur : what browser are you on?
[2014-11-27 03:33:53] rhk : chrome win7 64-bit
[2014-11-27 03:33:57] BitMEX_Arthur : k
[2014-11-27 03:34:27] rhk : Version 38.0.2125.111 m
[2014-11-27 03:35:00] rhk : also regularly get a page crash for your site if i leave the browser open over night
[2014-11-27 03:35:56] BitMEX_Arthur : will look into that thanks for letting us know
[2014-11-27 04:06:01] primevalsoup : sorry i stepped out for lunch
[2014-11-27 04:06:09] primevalsoup : i divide my time between HK and Tokyo
[2014-11-27 04:10:30] BitMEX_Arthur : i am usually in Hong Kong
[2014-11-27 04:16:40] primevalsoup : where is the bitmex office?
[2014-11-27 04:17:28] BitMEX_Arthur : virtual we don't have a physical office the team is spread out between europe and hong kong
[2014-11-27 04:21:01] primevalsoup : cool
[2014-11-27 04:24:11] BitMEX_Arthur : will you be at the bitcoin conference at cyberport friday and saturday
[2014-11-27 04:32:57] primevalsoup : i wasnt planning on it but may stop by saturday afternoon
[2014-11-27 04:33:13] primevalsoup : i see they allow onsite registration
[2014-11-27 04:34:04] BitMEX_Arthur : a couple members of BitMEX will be there as well
[2014-11-27 04:34:52] primevalsoup : ill track you guys down if i do go
[2014-11-27 04:37:06] BitMEX_Arthur : for settlement you are charged the relevant taker fee
[2014-11-27 04:37:15] BitMEX_Arthur : the docs will be updated shortly to explicitly state this
[2014-11-27 04:44:29] primevalsoup : got it thanks
[2014-11-27 11:16:45] laisee : hi, got a question on margin calculation from the examples posted at https://www.bitmex.com/app/futuresTradingGuide
[2014-11-27 11:21:19] BitMEX_Arthur : Hi yes
[2014-11-27 11:23:17] laisee : when I have a long position and make a sell, still remaining long overall, the example given shows no change to margin. is that correct?
[2014-11-27 11:24:35] BitMEX_Arthur : the changes will be any unrealised pnl will become realised after the sale
[2014-11-27 11:24:41] BitMEX_Arthur : and your maintenance margin will be reduced
[2014-11-27 11:29:36] laisee : so margin s/be represent the net o/s position after the trade
[2014-11-27 11:31:32] BitMEX_Arthur : wallet balance + unrealised pnl is your total account value
[2014-11-27 11:31:41] BitMEX_Arthur : unrealised pnl becomes realised pnl when you close positions
[2014-11-27 11:32:01] BitMEX_Arthur : what you are able to leverage into additional positions is your available margin
[2014-11-27 11:33:09] laisee : k. when I reduce net exposure by selling there is no initial margin calculated and available leverage increases, if I understand correctly.
[2014-11-27 11:33:44] BitMEX_Arthur : so you are right you are not charged initial margin to reduce a position
[2014-11-27 11:33:54] BitMEX_Arthur : your leverage decreases as you close positions
[2014-11-27 11:34:15] laisee : sure, got it.
[2014-11-27 11:42:49] laisee : thx
[2014-11-28 02:06:43] joequant : hi all. At UBM conference in Hong Kong right now.
[2014-11-28 02:26:20] BitMEX_Wally : They haven't announced the location yet: http://www.globalbtcsummit.com/en/location.php
[2014-11-28 02:26:39] BitMEX_Wally : "LOCATION Comming Soon!"
[2014-11-28 04:19:24] BitMEX_Arthur : How is it
[2014-11-28 04:39:42] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: are you still planning to start trading march today?
[2014-11-28 04:39:53] rhk : .
[2014-11-28 04:40:38] rhk : more websocket issues.. i typed in chat but didnt see my reply until i refresh the page
[2014-11-28 04:40:50] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: The XBTH15 contract will list at 12:00 UTC today
[2014-11-28 04:40:56] rhk : *my own chat message
[2014-11-28 06:54:38] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Sorry to hear that, I will do some more tests on Windows, this shouldn't be happening
[2014-11-28 11:54:19] BitMEX_Sam : Good afternoon traders
[2014-11-28 15:22:35] sjovani : Can somebody explain this insurance fee?
[2014-11-28 15:23:10] sjovani : is this 0.015% per trading session thus 0.045% per day thus 1.35% per month?
[2014-11-28 15:23:18] sjovani : thats even more than 1% for opening and closing....
[2014-11-28 15:24:17] sjovani : as to say...im forced into loosing another 0.85% ....or close position asap...?
[2014-11-28 15:27:48] BitMEX_Wally : sjovani: BitMEX stands behind all trades and guarantees settlement. The insurance fee covers the cost of knowing the contract will payout what it promises.
[2014-11-28 15:29:16] sjovani : with 20% maintenance there should nobody go bankrupt in the first place
[2014-11-28 15:29:27] sjovani : anyway the users are the one risking...we have nothing else than your word
[2014-11-28 15:29:40] sjovani : and as I see you change the rules of the game overnight...
[2014-11-28 15:29:53] sjovani : making me loose another 0.85% with new rules i didnt ask for
[2014-11-28 15:30:20] BitMEX_Wally : If you wish to revert to the previous fee system I will apply that to your account
[2014-11-28 15:30:30] sjovani : Note that the insurance is even over position..over capital...the insurance is 4% per month.... a whopping 50% per year!
[2014-11-28 15:30:49] rhk : wtf
[2014-11-28 15:30:49] BitMEX_Wally : With a trading fee of 0.005% the cost of trading in and out of positions is dramatically reduced
[2014-11-28 15:31:10] sjovani : yes...but not all can get rich day trading...where are the position traders?
[2014-11-28 15:31:11] rhk : sjovani: thanks for brining up the fees.. i didnt even see it had changed
[2014-11-28 15:31:34] rhk : BitMEX - you really should let your customers know before drastically changing the fee structure
[2014-11-28 15:31:34] sjovani : im a position trader, I responsible for a big percentage of turnover...and I will be GONE
[2014-11-28 15:32:09] sjovani : As I cannot work against 40% per year capital loss due to some insurance
[2014-11-28 15:32:23] rhk : only yesterday, BitMex was saying that they dont charge funding fees etc
[2014-11-28 15:33:00] sjovani : I think I should make my own exchange, and do it the right way:)
[2014-11-28 15:33:17] BitMEX_Sam : We apologize for the lack of notice on this, if any of you would like to be reverted please let us know
[2014-11-28 15:33:21] BitMEX_Wally : I appreciate your feedback, and we don't want anyone to pay more in fees as a result of these changes
[2014-11-28 15:33:54] sjovani : the insurance fee is an idea...but the fee is too high!
[2014-11-28 15:33:58] sjovani : and the trading fee is too low!
[2014-11-28 15:37:01] sjovani : anyway have to go...
[2014-11-28 15:37:33] rhk : the insurance fee as it stands makes BitMex impossible to use for positional trading or long-term hedging..
[2014-11-28 15:38:09] sjovani : indeed...its silly
[2014-11-28 15:39:27] rhk : BitMex - i'd just suggest that you revert back to the previous fees, and refund any 'insurance fees' that have been deducted from any client accounts
[2014-11-28 15:39:36] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: At this time none have been deducted
[2014-11-28 15:39:37] rhk : then try talking to your users
[2014-11-28 15:39:57] BitMEX_Sam : I know what you mean, and I apologize, I believe we may have been a bit quick to act here
[2014-11-28 15:40:04] rhk : you really should try to get some feedback before you make these changes
[2014-11-28 15:40:27] BitMEX_Wally : We got a lot of feed back from day traders....
[2014-11-28 15:40:31] BitMEX_Wally : Not so much from positional traders it seems
[2014-11-28 15:40:40] rhk : how did you request feedback?
[2014-11-28 15:40:52] rhk : i didnt see any email or notice that these had changed
[2014-11-28 15:41:15] rhk : only happened to login to check the account and saw sjovani talking about it
[2014-11-28 15:41:27] BitMEX_Sam : We had been talking with a lot of traders in the various message boards we had been launching on.
[2014-11-28 15:41:39] BitMEX_Sam : Sorry to spring this on you guys. For now, we're going to suspend the insurance fee
[2014-11-28 15:41:54] BitMEX_Sam : Just enjoy the reduced trading fees for now. We will give advance notice via email before reinstating it
[2014-11-28 15:42:39] rhk : i'd only trade with a zero fee on open positions.. no point otherwise - i need it for long-term hedging
[2014-11-28 15:42:54] rhk : trade fee was fine before.. similar to ICBIT IIRC
[2014-11-28 15:43:14] BitMEX_Wally : ICBIT was 1% at one point..
[2014-11-28 15:44:35] rhk : i'm paying about 0.5% taker / 0.1% maker at ICBIT now
[2014-11-28 15:46:18] rhk : no funding/open position fees
[2014-11-28 15:46:32] rhk : settlement fees are around 0.5% for positions held til expiry
[2014-11-28 15:49:01] BitMEX_Wally : What's the average spread you pay?
[2014-11-28 15:49:56] rhk : i'm a market maker.. so dont normally cross the spread
[2014-11-28 15:54:34] rhk : but FYI looking at the screen, spreads on ICBIT in jan are tighter than here in jan right now
[2014-11-28 15:55:03] rhk : ICBIT: 377/380, BitMex: 375/384 approx
[2014-11-28 16:01:27] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Thanks for all the feedback, please keep in touch with us about what you want to see in this platform
[2014-11-28 16:22:56] jelikishvili : hi
[2014-11-28 16:23:08] jelikishvili : I am confused how much is 1 contract
[2014-11-28 16:23:16] jelikishvili : is it 1BTC or 0.001BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:24:29] BitMEX_Wally : Hi jelikishvili
[2014-11-28 16:25:06] jelikishvili : hi
[2014-11-28 16:25:08] BitMEX_Wally : One contract is worth 0.00001 Bitcoin per USD
[2014-11-28 16:25:51] BitMEX_Wally : So 270 contracts are worth roughly 1 XBT
[2014-11-28 16:26:06] BitMEX_Sam : See the `Gross Value` in the order controls box, it calculates in real-time as you enter numbers in.
[2014-11-28 16:26:23] BitMEX_Sam : The calculator link on the top right can calculate PNL as well.
[2014-11-28 16:26:48] jelikishvili : wait
[2014-11-28 16:26:54] jelikishvili : contracts are quotes in USD right
[2014-11-28 16:27:08] BitMEX_Wally : Contracts are quoted in USD but settled in XBT
[2014-11-28 16:27:20] BitMEX_Wally : So there is a multiplier (0.00001 XBT per USD) to convert
[2014-11-28 16:27:26] jelikishvili : what is XBT is it 1BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:27:30] BitMEX_Wally : Yes
[2014-11-28 16:27:42] BitMEX_Wally : XBT is the international symbol for Bitcoin, used on Bloomberg etc
[2014-11-28 16:28:12] jelikishvili : ok, so 0.00001 XBT means I need 100K contracts to be long 1 BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:28:24] BitMEX_Wally : Not quite
[2014-11-28 16:28:51] BitMEX_Wally : 100k contracts would mean that if the USD price went up from 375 to 376 you would make 1 Bitcoin of profit
[2014-11-28 16:29:54] jelikishvili : Doesn;t 1 contract control 0.00001 XBT ?
[2014-11-28 16:30:28] BitMEX_Wally : 1 contract controls 0.00001 XBT per 1 dollar movement in the USD price of Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:30:38] jelikishvili : Ohh
[2014-11-28 16:31:03] jelikishvili : sorry thats an odd concept for me to grasp I thought these are ordinary futures
[2014-11-28 16:31:25] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, I understand the difficultly
[2014-11-28 16:31:35] BitMEX_Wally : All are futures are margined and settled in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:31:37] jelikishvili : So is that more like an option in a way ?
[2014-11-28 16:31:38] BitMEX_Wally : But quoted in USD
[2014-11-28 16:31:48] BitMEX_Wally : Technically they are called quantos
[2014-11-28 16:31:58] BitMEX_Wally : Quantity adjusting options
[2014-11-28 16:32:16] jelikishvili : Do you have a full right up one this ?
[2014-11-28 16:32:44] BitMEX_Wally : Absolutely
[2014-11-28 16:32:44] jelikishvili : writeup that is
[2014-11-28 16:32:56] BitMEX_Wally : Check out the Reference link above
[2014-11-28 16:33:15] BitMEX_Wally : We have all the formulas plus trading guides
[2014-11-28 16:33:55] jelikishvili : alright I will go read up on that
[2014-11-28 16:33:57] jelikishvili : thanks
[2014-11-28 16:34:09] BitMEX_Wally : If you want to go long 1 Bitcoin of risk, then at the current price you want to go long roughly 265 contracts
[2014-11-28 16:34:21] jelikishvili : I got that
[2014-11-28 16:34:32] jelikishvili : but I am not sure I grasp the mechancs fully
[2014-11-28 16:35:00] jelikishvili : what exactly am I long ? meaning what does the contract gurantee upon delivery would I get 1 BTC upon settlement ?
[2014-11-28 16:35:21] BitMEX_Wally : These are 'cash' settled futures, but settled in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:35:32] BitMEX_Wally : So if you go long at 377 USD
[2014-11-28 16:35:52] BitMEX_Wally : At the end of the month the contract will be settled, and your position closed at the actual Bitcoin price based on the underlying reference
[2014-11-28 16:36:04] BitMEX_Wally : Say the price is 400 USD
[2014-11-28 16:36:22] BitMEX_Wally : So your PNL in Bitcoin would be 23 * quantity * 0.00001
[2014-11-28 16:37:07] jelikishvili : OK
[2014-11-28 16:37:14] jelikishvili : but lets say I am short
[2014-11-28 16:37:32] BitMEX_Wally : Same formula, with a negative quantity
[2014-11-28 16:37:40] jelikishvili : and price moves from 400 to 100 netting me 300 point gain
[2014-11-28 16:37:47] jelikishvili : so I will get 300 points in btc
[2014-11-28 16:37:58] jelikishvili : but where do you get the btc ?
[2014-11-28 16:38:14] jelikishvili : who is the counterparty then ?
[2014-11-28 16:38:15] BitMEX_Wally : As an exchange we match buyers against sellers
[2014-11-28 16:38:22] jelikishvili : no I get that
[2014-11-28 16:38:22] BitMEX_Wally : So for every long there is a short
[2014-11-28 16:38:56] jelikishvili : Why didn't you decude to settle in USD if you don;t mind me asking ?
[2014-11-28 16:39:17] jelikishvili : settling in BTC seems like another dimention of risk
[2014-11-28 16:39:43] BitMEX_Wally : Taking USD deposits requires banking relationships and a lot of additional risk
[2014-11-28 16:39:54] jelikishvili : right
[2014-11-28 16:39:57] BitMEX_Wally : We're working on it and hope to announce something next year
[2014-11-28 16:40:16] BitMEX_Wally : Also, we're trying to offer a product for people to hedge existing bitcoin exposure
[2014-11-28 16:40:24] jelikishvili : problem for me personally is I was hoping to construct positions with other eshcgaes, and hedge here
[2014-11-28 16:40:25] BitMEX_Wally : For example, someone who sells goods in return for Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:40:45] BitMEX_Wally : They won't want to pay 100 USD to send an international wire to us
[2014-11-28 16:41:09] BitMEX_Wally : Depending on which exchange you're using you can still hedge here
[2014-11-28 16:41:20] jelikishvili : yeah but if yo don;t have a constant variable, then entire contract is moving you don;t really know what you will get in the end
[2014-11-28 16:41:21] BitMEX_Wally : 796 uses quantos like us
[2014-11-28 16:41:34] jelikishvili : I am not trying to talk you down :)
[2014-11-28 16:41:40] BitMEX_Wally : This is all good feedback
[2014-11-28 16:41:57] BitMEX_Wally : We are going to offer a USD contract soon
[2014-11-28 16:42:00] jelikishvili : just was hoping for different contract
[2014-11-28 16:42:05] jelikishvili : its good for speculation
[2014-11-28 16:42:07] BitMEX_Wally : Where the risk is priced in a fixed amount of USD
[2014-11-28 16:42:09] jelikishvili : but for hedging
[2014-11-28 16:42:16] BitMEX_Wally : Yes
[2014-11-28 16:42:37] jelikishvili : but lets say BTC collapces
[2014-11-28 16:42:42] jelikishvili : goes to 0
[2014-11-28 16:42:47] jelikishvili : and I was short
[2014-11-28 16:42:52] jelikishvili : what do I get :)
[2014-11-28 16:42:59] BitMEX_Wally : You get infinity of course
[2014-11-28 16:43:10] rhk : jelikishvili: an infinite amount of something that is worth zero :)
[2014-11-28 16:43:20] BitMEX_Wally : The problem is more one of risk management. If you go long at 400, and the price drops to 200
[2014-11-28 16:43:31] BitMEX_Wally : (and assuming you weren't leveraged)
[2014-11-28 16:43:33] jelikishvili : and I was short the BTC, guessed the fall and get a uselsss coin....
[2014-11-28 16:43:40] BitMEX_Wally : Then you think you have lost 50% equity, but actually you have lost 100% equity
[2014-11-28 16:44:01] BitMEX_Wally : Because with a USD contract you're not long XBT you're actually short USD
[2014-11-28 16:44:28] BitMEX_Wally : This is the style used by some other exchanges
[2014-11-28 16:45:29] jelikishvili : wait so what do I need to put up as a colleteral ? BTC right ?
[2014-11-28 16:45:46] jelikishvili : so margin requirment will also fluctuate I am guessing
[2014-11-28 16:46:21] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, we require 30% initial margin, and 20% maintenance margin
[2014-11-28 16:46:29] BitMEX_Wally : That is 20% of the current value of your position in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:48:49] jelikishvili : I have to think this through :)
[2014-11-28 16:48:57] jelikishvili : too many variables to consider
[2014-11-28 16:49:12] BitMEX_Wally : At 0.005% trading fee you can try it out
[2014-11-28 16:49:45] jelikishvili : not before I have a strategy in place and understand the risks fully
[2014-11-28 16:49:47] BitMEX_Wally : If there's a particular hedging strategy you need do let us know, we're open to feed back
[2014-11-28 16:50:24] jelikishvili : good stuff, I will be back need to put this on paper first :)
[2014-11-28 16:50:27] jelikishvili : thanks for your help
[2014-11-28 16:51:55] BitMEX_Wally : See you again soon :)
[2014-11-28 17:35:15] coroner : hm, so now you charge ~16.5% a year on open positions?
[2014-11-28 17:36:14] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Under that fee structure, yes. If you have a need to hedge long-term risk please email us at support@bitmex.com and we can work out something more favorable.
[2014-11-28 17:36:38] coroner : indeed, i'm most of the time delta neutral, or slightly short
[2014-11-28 17:40:13] coroner : not to cause you a headache, but wouldn't it be possible to allow users to choose a fee structure manually? I personally don't mind the socialized losses, it's kinda of a luxury problem anyway
[2014-11-28 17:40:59] coroner : I'd much rather trade on this platform than OKcoin, it feels more professional
[2014-11-28 17:41:04] coroner : but I like OKcoin's rules
[2014-11-28 17:41:42] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: That's something we're looking into
[2014-11-28 17:42:01] BitMEX_Sam : The issue is building it in a way that can't be abused
[2014-11-28 17:42:25] coroner : yeah exactly, you need to separate the pools somehow and maintain a balance in the size of them
[2014-11-28 17:42:28] BitMEX_Sam : The socialized losses are something we take a hardline on though, no matter who you are, socialized losses make it impossible to hedge
[2014-11-28 17:42:59] coroner : true
[2014-11-28 17:43:44] BitMEX_Sam : Thanks for the feedback, we really appreciate it. How's the platform performing for you?
[2014-11-28 17:43:55] coroner : pretty good, I like it a lot
[2014-11-28 17:43:57] coroner : it's very responsive
[2014-11-28 17:44:03] coroner : I just placed only a few trades
[2014-11-28 17:44:16] coroner : I don't like OKcoin's UI at all, and they keep changing it too
[2014-11-28 17:44:25] coroner : they way it is now is a nightmare if you're trying to do calendars
[2014-11-28 17:44:32] coroner : (OKcoin's)
[2014-11-28 17:44:54] BitMEX_Sam : Ah yeah. I don't like it much either, that's why we've designed it the way we have
[2014-11-28 17:45:08] BitMEX_Sam : Fast trading is one of the things we do best
[2014-11-28 17:45:23] coroner : it hasn't been that busy here yet though
[2014-11-28 17:45:54] coroner : one issue I have personally though is that the page doesn't fit on my screen entirely
[2014-11-28 17:46:00] coroner : so I need to scroll to see my positions
[2014-11-28 17:46:00] BitMEX_Sam : Ah
[2014-11-28 17:46:09] BitMEX_Sam : You can use ctrl + - to zoom out a bit
[2014-11-28 17:46:20] coroner : ah right good advice
[2014-11-28 17:46:21] BitMEX_Sam : seems to cause some issues with the charts, though, when you refresh
[2014-11-28 17:46:35] BitMEX_Sam : Working with TradingView on that one
[2014-11-28 17:47:06] BitMEX_Sam : You can also roll up the sidebar if you want to get the trollbox more in view, and resize it with this little control here ---------->
[2014-11-28 17:47:23] coroner : got it, cool
[2014-11-28 17:48:31] coroner : I think eventually this platform can become a market leader if you guys can get the fee structure right
[2014-11-28 17:48:58] BitMEX_Sam : Thanks, we appreciate that
[2014-11-28 17:49:47] coroner : on the other hand, you can tell by the tape at okcoin that it's filled to the brim with die hard gamblers and all they care about is insane leverage
[2014-11-28 17:50:13] coroner : unfortunately you'll probably need to attract those first in order to get the liquidity here :)
[2014-11-28 17:50:47] BitMEX_Sam : Haha yeah.
[2014-11-28 17:51:05] coroner : it's hilarious how much premium they pay over spot at times
[2014-11-28 17:51:23] BitMEX_Sam : We have a lead market maker who is usually here but is on London time
[2014-11-28 17:51:29] BitMEX_Sam : Puts up about 80k contracts on each side
[2014-11-28 17:51:59] coroner : that's about my size alone on okcoin
[2014-11-28 17:52:18] coroner : and I don't consider myself a huge player
[2014-11-28 17:52:32] BitMEX_Sam : Refresh me since I haven't traded there for a while, how large are the individual contracts
[2014-11-28 17:52:40] BitMEX_Sam : ofc that's also on 20x leverage, no?
[2014-11-28 17:53:06] coroner : that's about the net value in my account there
[2014-11-28 17:53:42] coroner : I would increase it if I had more confidence in their platform
[2014-11-28 17:54:03] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, I don't think their fee structure is maintainable
[2014-11-28 17:54:16] BitMEX_Sam : Likely a product of venture capitalism and "traction"
[2014-11-28 17:55:45] coroner : maybe they have a good PR department in Chinese
[2014-11-28 17:56:59] BitMEX_Sam : I don't think a lot of it resonates with western people
[2014-11-28 17:57:11] BitMEX_Sam : Re: the points systems, rewards, and all that
[2014-11-28 17:57:18] BitMEX_Sam : Most people just want to trade.
[2014-11-28 17:57:26] coroner : ya I don't care about the rewards thing
[2014-11-28 18:57:09] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: I put your open position into the top left widget for quicker reference, if you refresh you should see it
[2014-11-28 19:09:56] coroner : it's still in the same spot
[2014-11-28 19:10:02] coroner : let me logout
[2014-11-28 19:10:42] coroner : nope still the same
[2014-11-28 19:11:02] BitMEX_Arthur : which widget are u looking at?
[2014-11-28 19:11:17] BitMEX_Arthur : should see it in the "Selected Contract" widget
[2014-11-28 19:12:38] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Ah yeah not the entire position details, it won't fit up there. But your current position is now listed up top.
[2014-11-28 19:13:03] coroner : oh yeah got it
[2014-11-29 05:47:51] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: will the BTC deposit address ever change? or is it safe to always send deposits to the same (current) address?
[2014-11-29 06:23:25] BitMEX_Arthur : They will stay the same
[2014-11-29 06:36:03] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: If the deposit address changes (we reserve the right to do so for security or operations) then old addresses will still be safe to send to.
[2014-11-29 06:36:28] rhk : ok th
[2014-11-29 06:36:30] rhk : thx
[2014-11-29 17:42:00] BitMEX_Sam : Hey guys, how's it going
[2014-11-29 17:42:15] BitMEX_Sam : sjovani: Replying to your email right now
[2014-11-29 17:54:39] coroner : hi Sam, pretty good
[2014-11-29 17:54:51] coroner : just closed out a nice trade for profit
[2014-11-29 17:56:34] BitMEX_Sam : nicely done
[2014-11-29 17:57:09] BitMEX_Sam : How's the platform holding up for you @coroner?
[2014-11-29 17:57:36] coroner : good, everything seems fine
[2014-11-29 17:57:55] BitMEX_Sam : great
[2014-11-29 17:58:02] BitMEX_Sam : glad to see you making &btc;
[2014-11-29 17:58:19] BitMEX_Sam : market has been moving around quite a bit today
[2014-11-29 18:01:09] coroner : the futures were way overprices
[2014-11-29 18:01:12] coroner : overpriced*
[2014-11-29 18:01:18] coroner : was just a matter of time for that to come in
[2014-11-29 18:01:29] BitMEX_Sam : They usually trade at a premium to spot for some time,
[2014-11-29 18:01:33] BitMEX_Sam : but yeah they were not reacting very quickly
[2014-11-29 18:02:05] coroner : I'm trading manually so sometimes I'm just too slow
[2014-11-29 18:02:27] BitMEX_Sam : If you're interested in trying a bot check out our market maker https://github.com/BitMEX/market-maker
[2014-11-29 18:02:39] BitMEX_Sam : You can dry-run it or run it on our testnet site
[2014-11-29 18:02:49] coroner : a guy is coding a bot for me
[2014-11-29 18:02:55] coroner : I kinda hired him
[2014-11-29 18:03:00] coroner : he's coding it in nodejs
[2014-11-29 18:03:01] BitMEX_Sam : At the least it's a good platform for building a bot, since the API calls are all there
[2014-11-29 18:03:03] BitMEX_Sam : ah cool.
[2014-11-29 18:03:13] BitMEX_Sam : I write node most of the time, have him email me if he has questions
[2014-11-29 18:03:21] coroner : cool will do
[2014-11-29 18:03:27] BitMEX_Sam : The market-maker bot above has a reference implementation of our permanent API scheme using HMAC sigs
[2014-11-29 18:03:35] BitMEX_Sam : Should be a good reference for anything you build
[2014-11-29 18:03:52] coroner : that's going to be very helpful indeed
[2014-11-29 18:04:00] BitMEX_Sam : Oh we also have one other thing
[2014-11-29 18:04:13] BitMEX_Sam : Send him http://restunited.com/releases/369317049552340527/wrappers
[2014-11-29 18:04:52] BitMEX_Sam : Also send him https://www.npmjs.org/package/swagger-client, our API follows the swagger spec.
[2014-11-29 18:05:05] BitMEX_Sam : It will basically auto-generate an API connector for Node.
[2014-11-29 18:05:44] coroner : awesome!
[2014-11-29 18:06:03] coroner : that will definitely help
[2014-11-29 18:07:26] BitMEX_Sam : The swagger spec is one of the better things to happen to REST APIs these days - our interactive explorer (https://www.bitmex.com/api/explorer/) is completely auto-generated from the actual code running the API.
[2014-11-29 18:07:32] BitMEX_Sam : Every time we make a change it will be reflected there.
[2014-11-29 18:08:08] coroner : very nice .. you know programming has really evolved compared to 10 years ago when I used to do it
[2014-11-29 18:08:19] coroner : it's hard to keep track of all these build environments and things
[2014-11-29 18:09:14] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, it's practically a race
[2014-11-29 18:09:24] BitMEX_Sam : As soon as you get used to a technology, it's old hat and something else has taken its place
[2014-11-29 18:09:49] BitMEX_Sam : The only way to stay on top of it is to read... constantly
[2014-11-29 18:13:32] coroner : I'm currently doing that. Have you ever looked at clojure?
[2014-11-29 18:14:07] coroner : I've been playing around with that language to build the trade logic, clojurescript compiles to javascript so we can run it on node
[2014-11-29 18:14:30] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Yeah I built a first prototype of BitMEX on clojurescript
[2014-11-29 18:14:38] BitMEX_Sam : It's great tbh
[2014-11-29 18:14:57] BitMEX_Sam : I just didn't think it was mature enough at the time, and that I couldn't find programmers to hire that would know it
[2014-11-29 18:15:19] BitMEX_Sam : Clojure is definitely a superior language to Javascript though, but JS isn't so bad most of the time
[2014-11-29 18:16:51] BitMEX_Sam : I generally do trading bots in Python though. Simple, easy to use, stronger type system than JS, decent threading model
[2014-11-29 18:22:03] laisee : looking at the market maker sample, is it being used for Bitmex?
[2014-11-29 18:22:31] coroner : BitMEX_Sam: I was very impressed with core.async
[2014-11-29 18:22:51] BitMEX_Sam : laisee: Yeah, I can see in the logs that some people are using it
[2014-11-29 18:23:24] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Yeah, it's great. Have been meaning to give it a good look, for the time being Promises in JS have satisfied the need for me
[2014-11-29 18:24:01] coroner : we're working with promises on the server end and building the trade logic based on core.async, we'll have many different bots running at the same time
[2014-11-29 18:25:22] BitMEX_Sam : Server? Is this just a trading bot or something else?
[2014-11-29 18:27:31] coroner : we're building a framework that talks to several brokers and runs the bots on amazon lambda
[2014-11-29 18:27:42] coroner : i'm also trading options on the us stock market
[2014-11-29 18:28:24] coroner : so we have a server that knows the entire portfolio and dispatches new data to the bots
[2014-11-29 18:29:27] BitMEX_Sam : Ah interesting.
[2014-11-29 18:29:35] BitMEX_Sam : Lambda is fantastic
[2014-11-29 18:30:07] coroner : i haven't actually tested it yet unfortunately.. we just have a concept now and a very basic test environment
[2014-11-29 18:30:33] BitMEX_Sam : I haven't been able to get into the lambda pre-release yet
[2014-11-29 18:30:39] coroner : neither have we..
[2014-11-29 18:30:41] BitMEX_Sam : I'm not sure if it makes sense for trading, though. The latency might not be great
[2014-11-29 18:31:09] BitMEX_Sam : Considering that the actual trade requests are not really all that intensive, it might just make sense to spin up a dedicated VPS or two and deal with it
[2014-11-29 18:31:21] BitMEX_Sam : It's mostly I/O after all
[2014-11-29 18:31:21] coroner : i have a cpu intensive algorithm for option trading strategies which doesn't get affected much by a few seconds of latency
[2014-11-29 18:31:47] BitMEX_Sam : Ah
[2014-11-29 18:31:55] BitMEX_Sam : We'll see how it performs when it opens up, can't wait
[2014-11-29 18:31:58] coroner : so that's mostly for options, I agree that for bitcoin arbitrage like strategies latency matters more
[2014-11-29 18:32:31] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah. Would love to build something that could move fiat across exchanges and could hedge on BitMEX while doing so
[2014-11-29 18:32:37] BitMEX_Sam : Pretty involved, though
[2014-11-29 18:32:51] BitMEX_Sam : I do a fair amount of arb but it's generally basic
[2014-11-29 18:33:06] coroner : yeah especially because you're dealing with money
[2014-11-29 18:33:16] coroner : the logic itself is not that complicated but it cannot be wrong :)
[2014-11-29 18:33:50] BitMEX_Sam : Exactly that
[2014-11-29 18:33:59] BitMEX_Sam : That's a big part of why we were in beta for so long
[2014-11-29 18:34:20] BitMEX_Sam : We never had an incident but we spent a lot of time running simulations ensuring that we never would
[2014-11-29 18:34:22] coroner : I appreciate that a lot about bitmex, not sure if the bitcoin community does though
[2014-11-29 18:34:39] BitMEX_Sam : The community is growing, though, a lot of institutional types are starting to get involved
[2014-11-29 18:34:47] BitMEX_Sam : They'll need a serious platform - we intend to fill that void
[2014-11-29 18:34:48] laisee : sam> arb futures vs cash? or futures vs other exchanges?
[2014-11-29 18:34:49] coroner : i mean, look at what happened at mtgox while the signals were clearly there
[2014-11-29 18:35:01] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: That part was nuts, the writing was on the wall for months with them
[2014-11-29 18:35:06] coroner : yeah
[2014-11-29 18:35:27] BitMEX_Sam : laisee: Arb between exchanges, and when it makes sense to move fiat, move it and hedge while waiting for ACH
[2014-11-29 18:35:47] coroner : but exchanges that are reliable slowly gain market share.. look at kraken, it's growing
[2014-11-29 18:36:02] BitMEX_Sam : Kraken is an impressive platform
[2014-11-29 18:36:09] BitMEX_Sam : They deserve 10x more volume than they have, IMO
[2014-11-29 18:36:19] laisee : complex stuf, not sure if the fiat latency would make trading for profit impossible.
[2014-11-29 18:36:22] coroner : for sure
[2014-11-29 18:36:26] BitMEX_Sam : I knew when they had a PGP pubkey input on their registration form that they were something different
[2014-11-29 18:36:40] BitMEX_Sam : laisee: It would, if you couldn't hedge the lag
[2014-11-29 18:37:08] coroner : one of the problems with kraken imo is that they require a ridiculous amount of info from you if you want top tier clearance
[2014-11-29 18:37:43] coroner : they basically want you to submit your life's resume to you
[2014-11-29 18:37:50] coroner : to them*
[2014-11-29 18:39:32] coroner : gtg good talking to you
[2014-11-29 18:39:40] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Have a good one
[2014-11-30 03:08:04] zareri : sam, how do i have an open position with 0 currentqty?
[2014-11-30 03:09:16] BitMEX_Arthur : zareri: do you have a realisedPnl on that position?
[2014-11-30 03:14:27] zareri : yes
[2014-11-30 03:17:48] BitMEX_Arthur : that is why you see a position because u have a realisedPnl for that symbol
[2014-11-30 03:21:31] zareri : oh so for prfits it will stay in the positions spot? is there a section for just open positions?
[2014-11-30 03:21:54] BitMEX_Arthur : so realised pnl will remain until a position expires
[2014-11-30 03:22:08] BitMEX_Arthur : and then you will only see that amount reflected in the Wallet Balance
[2014-11-30 03:22:40] BitMEX_Arthur : i mean when the futures contract expires
[2014-11-30 03:22:44] BitMEX_Wally : Having a tab that only shows open positions (i.e. currentQty<>0) is a good idea
[2014-11-30 03:28:35] zareri : ok that is diff, thx for the responses. id say so wally. ;)
[2014-11-30 03:29:34] zareri : any chance or different colors themes soon?
[2014-11-30 03:30:04] BitMEX_Arthur : you prefer a black background if i remember correctly?
[2014-11-30 03:45:32] zareri : that would be correct. \
[2014-11-30 03:48:21] BitMEX_Arthur : your feedback is noted we are taking in a variety of opinions on the colour scheme
[2014-11-30 03:52:43] zareri : cool. so hows the volume looking on the overall site?
[2014-11-30 03:53:29] zareri : also, love the maker taker fee structure. i always wondered why it is so underutilized in crypto, it is still in its early days though =)
[2014-11-30 03:59:12] BitMEX_Arthur : for a new market we are doing well, in my previous role as a market maker for investment banks I had products listed on major exchanges that never traded a single dollar for months
[2014-11-30 03:59:39] BitMEX_Arthur : please check out our new fee structure, we believe we have aligned incentives correctly between shot term speculators and longer term hedgers
[2014-11-30 13:44:48] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: disagree.. the new holding fees make it vastly more expensive to trade positions, hedge or trade longer-dated futures here compared to ICBIT.
[2014-11-30 13:46:38] rhk : i can trade a Sep15 future on ICBIT for 1% commission.. corresponding fees on BitMex would be 13%+
[2014-11-30 14:02:42] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: This is good feedback and we're open to options. The Sep15 future on ICBIT currently has as 2% spread and is trading at a 14% premium to spot
[2014-11-30 14:04:17] rhk : i'm market making.. i like having a big spread :)
[2014-11-30 14:04:42] rhk : plus on ICBIT i dont have to deal with gamma
[2014-11-30 14:05:01] BitMEX_Wally : Because our XBT line is quanto?
[2014-11-30 14:05:37] rhk : right
[2014-11-30 14:06:01] BitMEX_Wally : We will be launching an XBU line with inverse pricing soon
[2014-11-30 14:06:03] BitMEX_Wally : Watch this space
[2014-11-30 14:08:04] rhk : you need to think about what type of client you are targetting.. speculators have OKCoin with super-low fees and 20x leverage. hedgers have ICBIT with zero holding fees, long dated futures and no gamma
[2014-11-30 14:08:17] rhk : so why would either come and trade here?
[2014-11-30 14:08:53] rhk : you need to offer at least the same baseline as one or the other (depending on your primary type of client).. and then some advantages
[2014-11-30 14:09:03] rhk : otherwise there's no point
[2014-11-30 16:40:48] sleger : "New Fee structure: Trading Fees Reduced by 100x" is VERY misleading
[2014-11-30 16:49:44] BitMEX_Sam : Let me update that title, we don't mean to be misleading about it
[2014-11-30 16:50:20] BitMEX_Sam : Of course like with any exchange, you should read the Fees page, where we are very explicit
[2014-11-30 17:17:54] sjovani : abuot this 100% insurance, where does this 20% up down tradesession limit fit in?
[2014-11-30 17:18:18] sjovani : What if bitcoin raises 40% in 1 session? What then happens with your long position?
[2014-11-30 17:18:55] sjovani : (or short position and vice versa)
[2014-11-30 17:20:15] BitMEX_Sam : The limits prevent users from placing buy orders above the limit up, or sell orders below the limit down
[2014-11-30 17:20:34] BitMEX_Sam : The price of the underlying may rise or fall quickly, but the contracts here can only rise or fall 20% from opening in a session
[2014-11-30 17:21:10] BitMEX_Sam : If the rise/fall is sustained, the price will likely hover around the limit until the end of the session, until the session ends and users can place buy/sell orders above/below the limit.
[2014-11-30 17:21:52] BitMEX_Sam : Likely what you would see with a 40% rise is a rise up to the limit, perhaps a bit of wobbling near the limit, and a lot of high sell orders preparing for the session to end and the buys to catch up.
[2014-11-30 17:22:22] sjovani : trading will halt I guess...if the future wants to trade at 500 but can only trade at 440....its not gonna hover around 440...its gonna be 440 bid no ask