This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2014-11-25 18:05:00] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: That's on its way. At this time we require email verification to withdraw, and you should receive an opportunity to confirm or cancel via email. We will be adding 2FA shortly for the initial request as well.
[2014-11-25 18:11:00] coroner : sweet
[2014-11-25 18:13:44] BitMEX_Sam : BTW @everyone, we have now introduced Maker/Taker fees
[2014-11-25 18:13:56] BitMEX_Sam : In many cases, your fees have just been cut in half.
[2014-11-25 18:16:32] coroner : Getting liquidity is kind of a chicken and egg problem I guess
[2014-11-25 18:18:19] coroner : Me personally I'd be much happier paying a flat fee for trading
[2014-11-25 18:18:47] coroner : VaultOfSatoshi does this, but they're just too small
[2014-11-25 18:18:51] BitMEX_Sam : Well, think of this way. It's flat, except sometimes, you pay less. :)
[2014-11-25 18:18:58] BitMEX_Sam : We don't really have a liquidity problem, though.
[2014-11-25 18:19:19] coroner : ~8 dollar spread is not exactly liquid imo
[2014-11-25 18:19:48] BitMEX_Sam : About 2%.
[2014-11-25 18:19:59] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah. Could be improved
[2014-11-25 18:20:19] coroner : well if you aim for 2% per trade then that is actually quite a lot..
[2014-11-25 18:20:26] coroner : 2% profit I mean
[2014-11-25 18:20:34] BitMEX_Sam : Sure
[2014-11-25 18:20:48] BitMEX_Sam : We have others who will be filling in the spread, as well as some of our users
[2014-11-25 18:20:57] coroner : I trade a lot, so I really need that spread to get narrower
[2014-11-25 18:20:58] BitMEX_Sam : We're about to roll out permanent API keys which will make the interactions with our API much smoother
[2014-11-25 18:21:13] coroner : ok
[2014-11-25 20:55:28] null : do you guys plan any lending program (where one lends BTC for interest)?
[2014-11-25 21:01:41] BitMEX_Sam : Hey @null - At this time, no, we don't, and I believe it will stay that way for some time
[2014-11-25 21:01:47] BitMEX_Sam : We do have some interesting products coming around the bend, though.
[2014-11-25 21:02:10] joequant : Hi.
[2014-11-25 21:02:16] null : Who provides liquidity for leverage now?
[2014-11-25 21:02:26] joequant : I'm doing market making.
[2014-11-25 21:02:32] joequant : So if you don't like the price
[2014-11-25 21:02:37] joequant : just speak up
[2014-11-25 21:02:48] null : joequant: what do you mean?
[2014-11-25 21:02:56] joequant : and I'll see if I can get you what you want.
[2014-11-25 21:03:03] joequant : I'm trying to make money
[2014-11-25 21:03:04] null : are the 70k orders yours?
[2014-11-25 21:03:07] joequant : no
[2014-11-25 21:03:17] joequant : by playing the bid-ask spread
[2014-11-25 21:03:27] joequant : which doesn't work if no one is buying
[2014-11-25 21:03:40] joequant : so if you want to buy/sell BTC
[2014-11-25 21:03:48] joequant : and you don't like the current order
[2014-11-25 21:03:51] joequant : just say something
[2014-11-25 21:03:54] null : oh
[2014-11-25 21:03:57] null : no thanks
[2014-11-25 21:04:03] null : not at this time :)
[2014-11-25 21:04:04] joequant : and we can negotiate something on the trollbo
[2014-11-25 21:04:53] null : BitMEX_Sam: who is funding the leverage right now?
[2014-11-25 21:05:33] null : I wish there was a stupid simple and succint FAQ somewhere
[2014-11-25 21:12:18] BitMEX_Sam : That's a good idea, we should write one that's a little more down-to-earth
[2014-11-25 21:12:23] BitMEX_Sam : I'll make an issue in our systems for that
[2014-11-25 21:12:32] BitMEX_Sam : Anyway, we are funding it
[2014-11-25 21:13:09] joequant : Markets should be quieter today.
[2014-11-25 21:47:19] floopfloop : Sam, you see this?
[2014-11-25 21:47:19] floopfloop : http://www.coindesk.com/nadex-bitcoin-binaries-us-market/
[2014-11-25 23:23:32] BitMEX_Arthur : morning asia
[2014-11-26 00:24:55] floopfloop : BitMEX_Arthur: Hey I had to leave earlier, did you guys ever say what you were doing for no fee winners?
[2014-11-26 00:26:56] BitMEX_Arthur : floopfloop: we will get back to you today
[2014-11-26 00:35:51] floopfloop : alright
[2014-11-26 00:35:57] floopfloop : wasnt trying to rush
[2014-11-26 00:36:08] floopfloop : was jw since I was gone and didnt want to read the mountain of troll lol
[2014-11-26 01:04:23] joequant : hi ho.
[2014-11-26 01:07:48] floopfloop : ni hao
[2014-11-26 01:41:53] rhk : no prices in jan again
[2014-11-26 01:51:08] joequant : just put in a quoute
[2014-11-26 01:51:36] BitMEX_Wally : Or you can trade the calendar spread
[2014-11-26 01:51:59] joequant : It's funny.
[2014-11-26 01:52:03] BitMEX_Wally : Buying 1 contract of XBTZ14_XBTF15 is the same as selling XBTZ14 and buying XBTF15
[2014-11-26 01:52:22] joequant : I think there were a dozen bots that were just waiting for a human to put in a quote.
[2014-11-26 02:09:51] BitMEX_Arthur : joequant: you been able to build a bot
[2014-11-26 02:35:42] rhk : i have an open order, but when i click cancel its not cancelled
[2014-11-26 02:36:28] rhk : tried from both 'all open orders' and 'open orders zbtf15' tabs
[2014-11-26 02:38:02] rhk : browser console gives an error
[2014-11-26 02:38:02] rhk : DELETE https://www.bitmex.com/api/v1/order 404 (Not Found)
[2014-11-26 02:39:12] rhk : after i close & reopen tab the order is gone
[2014-11-26 02:43:27] rhk : joequant: no.. there is only one market maker quoting all prices on the screen at the moment. they regularly pull all the quotes though.
[2014-11-26 02:46:10] BitMEX_Arthur : rhk: thanks for that, if that happens again pls send us a screenshot to support@bitmex.com will look into that
[2014-11-26 02:52:48] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: sure. i sent the stack trace through to sam
[2014-11-26 02:52:59] BitMEX_Arthur : ok great
[2014-11-26 02:54:42] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: Realtime updates come through WebSocket, seems like your browser missed the update telling it that order was canceled
[2014-11-26 02:56:47] joequant : 你好。 checking if trollbox can handle unicode
[2014-11-26 04:25:58] BitMEX_Wally : :xbt:
[2014-11-26 04:26:00] BitMEX_Wally : :btc:
[2014-11-26 04:26:19] BitMEX_Wally : &btc
[2014-11-26 04:26:29] BitMEX_Wally : &btc;
[2014-11-26 04:26:34] BitMEX_Wally : Got there eventually :)
[2014-11-26 04:26:54] BitMEX_Wally : &btc followed by a semicolon
[2014-11-26 07:27:35] cumberland : Considering BitMEX's target audience are "commercial hedgers, miners, payment processors, and any other parties that have a need for serious derivatives products"....the contract size is too small by a factor of 10,000
[2014-11-26 07:29:24] BitMEX_Arthur : cumberland: this is the uber mini contract but we will re evaluate as the platform grows
[2014-11-26 08:16:58] BitMEX_Arthur : here comes the shakeout
[2014-11-26 09:34:13] void : Please change to Bitcoin
[2014-11-26 09:34:17] void : so small.
[2014-11-26 09:34:29] void : Change to bitcoin directly.
[2014-11-26 09:35:05] void : and the trasaction fee is higher than icbit...
[2014-11-26 09:36:29] BitMEX_Sam : It's a very different product than icbit, and we don't charge daily funding fees, which are the bulk of their fee structure.
[2014-11-26 09:36:52] void : icbit didn't charge daily funding fee.
[2014-11-26 09:36:57] void : btc.sx charge this.
[2014-11-26 09:37:12] void : and china btc futures didn't charge also. It's ok.
[2014-11-26 09:38:29] BitMEX_Sam : Depends on the contract, you're right though, it looks like they are moving to a different structure recently
[2014-11-26 09:40:33] void : looks like buy and sell bitcoin is more suitable for bitmex.
[2014-11-26 09:40:42] void : Or at least 100$
[2014-11-26 09:40:52] void : okcoin use 100$
[2014-11-26 09:40:55] void : 796 use bitcoin
[2014-11-26 09:53:08] BitMEX_Arthur : void: you want a bigger contract size in Bitcoin?
[2014-11-26 09:53:25] void : surely.
[2014-11-26 09:53:29] BitMEX_Arthur : ok
[2014-11-26 09:53:43] void : It's so small now.
[2014-11-26 09:54:23] void : Seem you guys can come to hk bitcoin meeting on friday A lot of chinese trader will join this conforence.
[2014-11-26 09:54:48] BitMEX_Arthur : one of the co-founders will be in attendance on saturday
[2014-11-26 09:58:45] BitMEX_Arthur : void: if you are going to be there please send us a mail to support@bitmex.com so we can meet you in person
[2014-11-26 09:59:36] void : Arthur.we have email contact before. I have a topic about bitcoin future at Saturday.
[2014-11-26 10:00:02] BitMEX_Wally : I'll be there
[2014-11-26 10:00:11] BitMEX_Wally : What's the schedule for Friday? I'm free in the evening
[2014-11-26 10:01:05] void : You can find the schedule on the http://www.globalbtcsummit.com/
[2014-11-26 11:57:54] joequant : I'll be there
[2014-11-26 14:25:33] BitMEX_Sam : Permanent API keys are now live - thanks for your suggestions everyone.
[2014-11-26 14:44:29] rhk : BitMEX_Sam: so we can create as many API keys as we need?
[2014-11-26 14:44:42] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Yes, and they can be restricted to CIDR ranges
[2014-11-26 14:44:50] BitMEX_Sam : For now, please use the command line client in the market-maker repository
[2014-11-26 14:44:56] BitMEX_Sam : I'll be adding a UI for it later on.
[2014-11-26 14:58:08] floopfloop : hmm, no confirm email?
[2014-11-26 14:59:59] BitMEX_Arthur : floopfloop: ?
[2014-11-26 15:03:52] floopfloop : I made a withdraw
[2014-11-26 15:04:24] floopfloop : its pending, but I have no email condirm
[2014-11-26 15:04:43] BitMEX_Arthur : thx for alerting us, we'll see what happened
[2014-11-26 15:41:20] floopfloop : also
[2014-11-26 15:41:25] floopfloop : I got my funds back
[2014-11-26 15:41:34] floopfloop : it wont let me withdraw exact funds
[2014-11-26 15:41:44] floopfloop : .0001 off I think
[2014-11-26 15:42:02] floopfloop : It wont allow me to withdraw maximum, even if I include fee.
[2014-11-26 15:44:09] BitMEX_Arthur : can you take a screenshot please thanks
[2014-11-26 15:44:17] BitMEX_Arthur : and send to support@bitmex.com
[2014-11-26 15:44:18] BitMEX_Arthur : thanks
[2014-11-26 16:12:21] BitMEX_Sam : floopfloop: You have an email
[2014-11-26 18:30:49] jon : congrts for the launch again
[2014-11-26 18:31:06] jon : hope the volume will rapidly grow up
[2014-11-27 01:59:23] primevalsoup : i have a couple of questions which were not immediately obvious (to me at least) from reading your docs
[2014-11-27 01:59:53] primevalsoup : when paying out PL in XBT at settlement what rate do you use to convert USD P&L to XBT?
[2014-11-27 01:59:59] primevalsoup : the settlement price?
[2014-11-27 02:00:53] primevalsoup : other exchange (796) use a fixed multiplier which means that i end up with gamma exposure when putting on a hedge position which is not always desireable
[2014-11-27 02:02:08] primevalsoup : also if i hold contract to settlement will you charge me commission for settling the contract? or do i only pay when actually buying/selling?
[2014-11-27 02:05:38] rhk : @BitMEX_Arthur i assume settlement fees are charged at 'taker' rates? can you confirm?
[2014-11-27 02:30:25] BitMEX_Arthur : primevalsoup: hi you are correct the multiplier is in XBT so you do have USD gamma
[2014-11-27 02:39:37] primevalsoup : thanks arthur, i see now that it's an XBT multiplier
[2014-11-27 02:40:02] primevalsoup : also if you could confirm the settlement fees that would be great
[2014-11-27 02:59:16] BitMEX_Arthur : yes will do
[2014-11-27 03:00:01] BitMEX_Arthur : primevalsoup: which type of future do u prefer?
[2014-11-27 03:01:23] primevalsoup : im actually interested in both
[2014-11-27 03:01:59] primevalsoup : if i can get "cheap" gamma
[2014-11-27 03:02:23] primevalsoup : then i'd put on a position using the quanto futures
[2014-11-27 03:02:45] primevalsoup : and dynamically hedge to capture the volatility
[2014-11-27 03:03:09] primevalsoup : i also am running a marketmaking book and am interested in non-quanto futures to hedge my BTC inventory
[2014-11-27 03:03:10] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah that will be an interesting strategy
[2014-11-27 03:03:26] primevalsoup : right now im selling on swap to myself on Bitfinex
[2014-11-27 03:03:29] primevalsoup : so sell on swap
[2014-11-27 03:03:31] BitMEX_Arthur : so would you be interested in mm for us
[2014-11-27 03:03:32] primevalsoup : by on the exchnage
[2014-11-27 03:03:42] primevalsoup : buy on the exchange
[2014-11-27 03:03:59] primevalsoup : to get a perfectly hedge inventory
[2014-11-27 03:04:09] primevalsoup : but it may be more effecient to use futures for this
[2014-11-27 03:04:21] primevalsoup : yes i would be interested
[2014-11-27 03:04:33] primevalsoup : in market making on your exchange
[2014-11-27 03:04:59] BitMEX_Arthur : ok cool what is your email i can send you the docs, the fees are much cheaper for market makers
[2014-11-27 03:05:10] primevalsoup : ill emial it to you
[2014-11-27 03:05:13] primevalsoup : info@bitmex.com?
[2014-11-27 03:05:22] BitMEX_Arthur : yes
[2014-11-27 03:05:29] primevalsoup : k will shoot it over now
[2014-11-27 03:09:18] BitMEX_Arthur : got it we are finalising the doc today and i will send it over to you
[2014-11-27 03:09:25] BitMEX_Arthur : where are you based?
[2014-11-27 03:30:00] rhk : i just submitted buy orders (twice) they say "submitted" but never appear in orderbook or order list
[2014-11-27 03:30:27] rhk : only appear after I refresh (F5) the whole page
[2014-11-27 03:31:24] BitMEX_Arthur : ok will look into the web socket connection thanks
[2014-11-27 03:33:45] BitMEX_Arthur : what browser are you on?
[2014-11-27 03:33:53] rhk : chrome win7 64-bit
[2014-11-27 03:33:57] BitMEX_Arthur : k
[2014-11-27 03:34:27] rhk : Version 38.0.2125.111 m
[2014-11-27 03:35:00] rhk : also regularly get a page crash for your site if i leave the browser open over night
[2014-11-27 03:35:56] BitMEX_Arthur : will look into that thanks for letting us know
[2014-11-27 04:06:01] primevalsoup : sorry i stepped out for lunch
[2014-11-27 04:06:09] primevalsoup : i divide my time between HK and Tokyo
[2014-11-27 04:10:30] BitMEX_Arthur : i am usually in Hong Kong
[2014-11-27 04:16:40] primevalsoup : where is the bitmex office?
[2014-11-27 04:17:28] BitMEX_Arthur : virtual we don't have a physical office the team is spread out between europe and hong kong
[2014-11-27 04:21:01] primevalsoup : cool
[2014-11-27 04:24:11] BitMEX_Arthur : will you be at the bitcoin conference at cyberport friday and saturday
[2014-11-27 04:32:57] primevalsoup : i wasnt planning on it but may stop by saturday afternoon
[2014-11-27 04:33:13] primevalsoup : i see they allow onsite registration
[2014-11-27 04:34:04] BitMEX_Arthur : a couple members of BitMEX will be there as well
[2014-11-27 04:34:52] primevalsoup : ill track you guys down if i do go
[2014-11-27 04:37:06] BitMEX_Arthur : for settlement you are charged the relevant taker fee
[2014-11-27 04:37:15] BitMEX_Arthur : the docs will be updated shortly to explicitly state this
[2014-11-27 04:44:29] primevalsoup : got it thanks
[2014-11-27 11:16:45] laisee : hi, got a question on margin calculation from the examples posted at https://www.bitmex.com/app/futuresTradingGuide
[2014-11-27 11:21:19] BitMEX_Arthur : Hi yes
[2014-11-27 11:23:17] laisee : when I have a long position and make a sell, still remaining long overall, the example given shows no change to margin. is that correct?
[2014-11-27 11:24:35] BitMEX_Arthur : the changes will be any unrealised pnl will become realised after the sale
[2014-11-27 11:24:41] BitMEX_Arthur : and your maintenance margin will be reduced
[2014-11-27 11:29:36] laisee : so margin s/be represent the net o/s position after the trade
[2014-11-27 11:31:32] BitMEX_Arthur : wallet balance + unrealised pnl is your total account value
[2014-11-27 11:31:41] BitMEX_Arthur : unrealised pnl becomes realised pnl when you close positions
[2014-11-27 11:32:01] BitMEX_Arthur : what you are able to leverage into additional positions is your available margin
[2014-11-27 11:33:09] laisee : k. when I reduce net exposure by selling there is no initial margin calculated and available leverage increases, if I understand correctly.
[2014-11-27 11:33:44] BitMEX_Arthur : so you are right you are not charged initial margin to reduce a position
[2014-11-27 11:33:54] BitMEX_Arthur : your leverage decreases as you close positions
[2014-11-27 11:34:15] laisee : sure, got it.
[2014-11-27 11:42:49] laisee : thx
[2014-11-28 02:06:43] joequant : hi all. At UBM conference in Hong Kong right now.
[2014-11-28 02:26:20] BitMEX_Wally : They haven't announced the location yet: http://www.globalbtcsummit.com/en/location.php
[2014-11-28 02:26:39] BitMEX_Wally : "LOCATION Comming Soon!"
[2014-11-28 04:19:24] BitMEX_Arthur : How is it
[2014-11-28 04:39:42] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: are you still planning to start trading march today?
[2014-11-28 04:39:53] rhk : .
[2014-11-28 04:40:38] rhk : more websocket issues.. i typed in chat but didnt see my reply until i refresh the page
[2014-11-28 04:40:50] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: The XBTH15 contract will list at 12:00 UTC today
[2014-11-28 04:40:56] rhk : *my own chat message
[2014-11-28 06:54:38] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Sorry to hear that, I will do some more tests on Windows, this shouldn't be happening
[2014-11-28 11:54:19] BitMEX_Sam : Good afternoon traders
[2014-11-28 15:22:35] sjovani : Can somebody explain this insurance fee?
[2014-11-28 15:23:10] sjovani : is this 0.015% per trading session thus 0.045% per day thus 1.35% per month?
[2014-11-28 15:23:18] sjovani : thats even more than 1% for opening and closing....
[2014-11-28 15:24:17] sjovani : as to say...im forced into loosing another 0.85% ....or close position asap...?
[2014-11-28 15:27:48] BitMEX_Wally : sjovani: BitMEX stands behind all trades and guarantees settlement. The insurance fee covers the cost of knowing the contract will payout what it promises.
[2014-11-28 15:29:16] sjovani : with 20% maintenance there should nobody go bankrupt in the first place
[2014-11-28 15:29:27] sjovani : anyway the users are the one risking...we have nothing else than your word
[2014-11-28 15:29:40] sjovani : and as I see you change the rules of the game overnight...
[2014-11-28 15:29:53] sjovani : making me loose another 0.85% with new rules i didnt ask for
[2014-11-28 15:30:20] BitMEX_Wally : If you wish to revert to the previous fee system I will apply that to your account
[2014-11-28 15:30:30] sjovani : Note that the insurance is even over position..over capital...the insurance is 4% per month.... a whopping 50% per year!
[2014-11-28 15:30:49] rhk : wtf
[2014-11-28 15:30:49] BitMEX_Wally : With a trading fee of 0.005% the cost of trading in and out of positions is dramatically reduced
[2014-11-28 15:31:10] sjovani : yes...but not all can get rich day trading...where are the position traders?
[2014-11-28 15:31:11] rhk : sjovani: thanks for brining up the fees.. i didnt even see it had changed
[2014-11-28 15:31:34] rhk : BitMEX - you really should let your customers know before drastically changing the fee structure
[2014-11-28 15:31:34] sjovani : im a position trader, I responsible for a big percentage of turnover...and I will be GONE
[2014-11-28 15:32:09] sjovani : As I cannot work against 40% per year capital loss due to some insurance
[2014-11-28 15:32:23] rhk : only yesterday, BitMex was saying that they dont charge funding fees etc
[2014-11-28 15:33:00] sjovani : I think I should make my own exchange, and do it the right way:)
[2014-11-28 15:33:17] BitMEX_Sam : We apologize for the lack of notice on this, if any of you would like to be reverted please let us know
[2014-11-28 15:33:21] BitMEX_Wally : I appreciate your feedback, and we don't want anyone to pay more in fees as a result of these changes
[2014-11-28 15:33:54] sjovani : the insurance fee is an idea...but the fee is too high!
[2014-11-28 15:33:58] sjovani : and the trading fee is too low!
[2014-11-28 15:37:01] sjovani : anyway have to go...
[2014-11-28 15:37:33] rhk : the insurance fee as it stands makes BitMex impossible to use for positional trading or long-term hedging..
[2014-11-28 15:38:09] sjovani : indeed...its silly
[2014-11-28 15:39:27] rhk : BitMex - i'd just suggest that you revert back to the previous fees, and refund any 'insurance fees' that have been deducted from any client accounts
[2014-11-28 15:39:36] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: At this time none have been deducted
[2014-11-28 15:39:37] rhk : then try talking to your users
[2014-11-28 15:39:57] BitMEX_Sam : I know what you mean, and I apologize, I believe we may have been a bit quick to act here
[2014-11-28 15:40:04] rhk : you really should try to get some feedback before you make these changes
[2014-11-28 15:40:27] BitMEX_Wally : We got a lot of feed back from day traders....
[2014-11-28 15:40:31] BitMEX_Wally : Not so much from positional traders it seems
[2014-11-28 15:40:40] rhk : how did you request feedback?
[2014-11-28 15:40:52] rhk : i didnt see any email or notice that these had changed
[2014-11-28 15:41:15] rhk : only happened to login to check the account and saw sjovani talking about it
[2014-11-28 15:41:27] BitMEX_Sam : We had been talking with a lot of traders in the various message boards we had been launching on.
[2014-11-28 15:41:39] BitMEX_Sam : Sorry to spring this on you guys. For now, we're going to suspend the insurance fee
[2014-11-28 15:41:54] BitMEX_Sam : Just enjoy the reduced trading fees for now. We will give advance notice via email before reinstating it
[2014-11-28 15:42:39] rhk : i'd only trade with a zero fee on open positions.. no point otherwise - i need it for long-term hedging
[2014-11-28 15:42:54] rhk : trade fee was fine before.. similar to ICBIT IIRC
[2014-11-28 15:43:14] BitMEX_Wally : ICBIT was 1% at one point..
[2014-11-28 15:44:35] rhk : i'm paying about 0.5% taker / 0.1% maker at ICBIT now
[2014-11-28 15:46:18] rhk : no funding/open position fees
[2014-11-28 15:46:32] rhk : settlement fees are around 0.5% for positions held til expiry
[2014-11-28 15:49:01] BitMEX_Wally : What's the average spread you pay?
[2014-11-28 15:49:56] rhk : i'm a market maker.. so dont normally cross the spread
[2014-11-28 15:54:34] rhk : but FYI looking at the screen, spreads on ICBIT in jan are tighter than here in jan right now
[2014-11-28 15:55:03] rhk : ICBIT: 377/380, BitMex: 375/384 approx
[2014-11-28 16:01:27] BitMEX_Sam : rhk: Thanks for all the feedback, please keep in touch with us about what you want to see in this platform
[2014-11-28 16:22:56] jelikishvili : hi
[2014-11-28 16:23:08] jelikishvili : I am confused how much is 1 contract
[2014-11-28 16:23:16] jelikishvili : is it 1BTC or 0.001BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:24:29] BitMEX_Wally : Hi jelikishvili
[2014-11-28 16:25:06] jelikishvili : hi
[2014-11-28 16:25:08] BitMEX_Wally : One contract is worth 0.00001 Bitcoin per USD
[2014-11-28 16:25:51] BitMEX_Wally : So 270 contracts are worth roughly 1 XBT
[2014-11-28 16:26:06] BitMEX_Sam : See the `Gross Value` in the order controls box, it calculates in real-time as you enter numbers in.
[2014-11-28 16:26:23] BitMEX_Sam : The calculator link on the top right can calculate PNL as well.
[2014-11-28 16:26:48] jelikishvili : wait
[2014-11-28 16:26:54] jelikishvili : contracts are quotes in USD right
[2014-11-28 16:27:08] BitMEX_Wally : Contracts are quoted in USD but settled in XBT
[2014-11-28 16:27:20] BitMEX_Wally : So there is a multiplier (0.00001 XBT per USD) to convert
[2014-11-28 16:27:26] jelikishvili : what is XBT is it 1BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:27:30] BitMEX_Wally : Yes
[2014-11-28 16:27:42] BitMEX_Wally : XBT is the international symbol for Bitcoin, used on Bloomberg etc
[2014-11-28 16:28:12] jelikishvili : ok, so 0.00001 XBT means I need 100K contracts to be long 1 BTC ?
[2014-11-28 16:28:24] BitMEX_Wally : Not quite
[2014-11-28 16:28:51] BitMEX_Wally : 100k contracts would mean that if the USD price went up from 375 to 376 you would make 1 Bitcoin of profit
[2014-11-28 16:29:54] jelikishvili : Doesn;t 1 contract control 0.00001 XBT ?
[2014-11-28 16:30:28] BitMEX_Wally : 1 contract controls 0.00001 XBT per 1 dollar movement in the USD price of Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:30:38] jelikishvili : Ohh
[2014-11-28 16:31:03] jelikishvili : sorry thats an odd concept for me to grasp I thought these are ordinary futures
[2014-11-28 16:31:25] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, I understand the difficultly
[2014-11-28 16:31:35] BitMEX_Wally : All are futures are margined and settled in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:31:37] jelikishvili : So is that more like an option in a way ?
[2014-11-28 16:31:38] BitMEX_Wally : But quoted in USD
[2014-11-28 16:31:48] BitMEX_Wally : Technically they are called quantos
[2014-11-28 16:31:58] BitMEX_Wally : Quantity adjusting options
[2014-11-28 16:32:16] jelikishvili : Do you have a full right up one this ?
[2014-11-28 16:32:44] BitMEX_Wally : Absolutely
[2014-11-28 16:32:44] jelikishvili : writeup that is
[2014-11-28 16:32:56] BitMEX_Wally : Check out the Reference link above
[2014-11-28 16:33:15] BitMEX_Wally : We have all the formulas plus trading guides
[2014-11-28 16:33:55] jelikishvili : alright I will go read up on that
[2014-11-28 16:33:57] jelikishvili : thanks
[2014-11-28 16:34:09] BitMEX_Wally : If you want to go long 1 Bitcoin of risk, then at the current price you want to go long roughly 265 contracts
[2014-11-28 16:34:21] jelikishvili : I got that
[2014-11-28 16:34:32] jelikishvili : but I am not sure I grasp the mechancs fully
[2014-11-28 16:35:00] jelikishvili : what exactly am I long ? meaning what does the contract gurantee upon delivery would I get 1 BTC upon settlement ?
[2014-11-28 16:35:21] BitMEX_Wally : These are 'cash' settled futures, but settled in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:35:32] BitMEX_Wally : So if you go long at 377 USD
[2014-11-28 16:35:52] BitMEX_Wally : At the end of the month the contract will be settled, and your position closed at the actual Bitcoin price based on the underlying reference
[2014-11-28 16:36:04] BitMEX_Wally : Say the price is 400 USD
[2014-11-28 16:36:22] BitMEX_Wally : So your PNL in Bitcoin would be 23 * quantity * 0.00001
[2014-11-28 16:37:07] jelikishvili : OK
[2014-11-28 16:37:14] jelikishvili : but lets say I am short
[2014-11-28 16:37:32] BitMEX_Wally : Same formula, with a negative quantity
[2014-11-28 16:37:40] jelikishvili : and price moves from 400 to 100 netting me 300 point gain
[2014-11-28 16:37:47] jelikishvili : so I will get 300 points in btc
[2014-11-28 16:37:58] jelikishvili : but where do you get the btc ?
[2014-11-28 16:38:14] jelikishvili : who is the counterparty then ?
[2014-11-28 16:38:15] BitMEX_Wally : As an exchange we match buyers against sellers
[2014-11-28 16:38:22] jelikishvili : no I get that
[2014-11-28 16:38:22] BitMEX_Wally : So for every long there is a short
[2014-11-28 16:38:56] jelikishvili : Why didn't you decude to settle in USD if you don;t mind me asking ?
[2014-11-28 16:39:17] jelikishvili : settling in BTC seems like another dimention of risk
[2014-11-28 16:39:43] BitMEX_Wally : Taking USD deposits requires banking relationships and a lot of additional risk
[2014-11-28 16:39:54] jelikishvili : right
[2014-11-28 16:39:57] BitMEX_Wally : We're working on it and hope to announce something next year
[2014-11-28 16:40:16] BitMEX_Wally : Also, we're trying to offer a product for people to hedge existing bitcoin exposure
[2014-11-28 16:40:24] jelikishvili : problem for me personally is I was hoping to construct positions with other eshcgaes, and hedge here
[2014-11-28 16:40:25] BitMEX_Wally : For example, someone who sells goods in return for Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:40:45] BitMEX_Wally : They won't want to pay 100 USD to send an international wire to us
[2014-11-28 16:41:09] BitMEX_Wally : Depending on which exchange you're using you can still hedge here
[2014-11-28 16:41:20] jelikishvili : yeah but if yo don;t have a constant variable, then entire contract is moving you don;t really know what you will get in the end
[2014-11-28 16:41:21] BitMEX_Wally : 796 uses quantos like us
[2014-11-28 16:41:34] jelikishvili : I am not trying to talk you down :)
[2014-11-28 16:41:40] BitMEX_Wally : This is all good feedback
[2014-11-28 16:41:57] BitMEX_Wally : We are going to offer a USD contract soon
[2014-11-28 16:42:00] jelikishvili : just was hoping for different contract
[2014-11-28 16:42:05] jelikishvili : its good for speculation
[2014-11-28 16:42:07] BitMEX_Wally : Where the risk is priced in a fixed amount of USD
[2014-11-28 16:42:09] jelikishvili : but for hedging
[2014-11-28 16:42:16] BitMEX_Wally : Yes
[2014-11-28 16:42:37] jelikishvili : but lets say BTC collapces
[2014-11-28 16:42:42] jelikishvili : goes to 0
[2014-11-28 16:42:47] jelikishvili : and I was short
[2014-11-28 16:42:52] jelikishvili : what do I get :)
[2014-11-28 16:42:59] BitMEX_Wally : You get infinity of course
[2014-11-28 16:43:10] rhk : jelikishvili: an infinite amount of something that is worth zero :)
[2014-11-28 16:43:20] BitMEX_Wally : The problem is more one of risk management. If you go long at 400, and the price drops to 200
[2014-11-28 16:43:31] BitMEX_Wally : (and assuming you weren't leveraged)
[2014-11-28 16:43:33] jelikishvili : and I was short the BTC, guessed the fall and get a uselsss coin....
[2014-11-28 16:43:40] BitMEX_Wally : Then you think you have lost 50% equity, but actually you have lost 100% equity
[2014-11-28 16:44:01] BitMEX_Wally : Because with a USD contract you're not long XBT you're actually short USD
[2014-11-28 16:44:28] BitMEX_Wally : This is the style used by some other exchanges
[2014-11-28 16:45:29] jelikishvili : wait so what do I need to put up as a colleteral ? BTC right ?
[2014-11-28 16:45:46] jelikishvili : so margin requirment will also fluctuate I am guessing
[2014-11-28 16:46:21] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, we require 30% initial margin, and 20% maintenance margin
[2014-11-28 16:46:29] BitMEX_Wally : That is 20% of the current value of your position in Bitcoin
[2014-11-28 16:48:49] jelikishvili : I have to think this through :)
[2014-11-28 16:48:57] jelikishvili : too many variables to consider
[2014-11-28 16:49:12] BitMEX_Wally : At 0.005% trading fee you can try it out
[2014-11-28 16:49:45] jelikishvili : not before I have a strategy in place and understand the risks fully
[2014-11-28 16:49:47] BitMEX_Wally : If there's a particular hedging strategy you need do let us know, we're open to feed back
[2014-11-28 16:50:24] jelikishvili : good stuff, I will be back need to put this on paper first :)
[2014-11-28 16:50:27] jelikishvili : thanks for your help
[2014-11-28 16:51:55] BitMEX_Wally : See you again soon :)
[2014-11-28 17:35:15] coroner : hm, so now you charge ~16.5% a year on open positions?
[2014-11-28 17:36:14] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Under that fee structure, yes. If you have a need to hedge long-term risk please email us at support@bitmex.com and we can work out something more favorable.
[2014-11-28 17:36:38] coroner : indeed, i'm most of the time delta neutral, or slightly short
[2014-11-28 17:40:13] coroner : not to cause you a headache, but wouldn't it be possible to allow users to choose a fee structure manually? I personally don't mind the socialized losses, it's kinda of a luxury problem anyway
[2014-11-28 17:40:59] coroner : I'd much rather trade on this platform than OKcoin, it feels more professional
[2014-11-28 17:41:04] coroner : but I like OKcoin's rules
[2014-11-28 17:41:42] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: That's something we're looking into
[2014-11-28 17:42:01] BitMEX_Sam : The issue is building it in a way that can't be abused
[2014-11-28 17:42:25] coroner : yeah exactly, you need to separate the pools somehow and maintain a balance in the size of them
[2014-11-28 17:42:28] BitMEX_Sam : The socialized losses are something we take a hardline on though, no matter who you are, socialized losses make it impossible to hedge
[2014-11-28 17:42:59] coroner : true
[2014-11-28 17:43:44] BitMEX_Sam : Thanks for the feedback, we really appreciate it. How's the platform performing for you?
[2014-11-28 17:43:55] coroner : pretty good, I like it a lot
[2014-11-28 17:43:57] coroner : it's very responsive
[2014-11-28 17:44:03] coroner : I just placed only a few trades
[2014-11-28 17:44:16] coroner : I don't like OKcoin's UI at all, and they keep changing it too
[2014-11-28 17:44:25] coroner : they way it is now is a nightmare if you're trying to do calendars
[2014-11-28 17:44:32] coroner : (OKcoin's)
[2014-11-28 17:44:54] BitMEX_Sam : Ah yeah. I don't like it much either, that's why we've designed it the way we have
[2014-11-28 17:45:08] BitMEX_Sam : Fast trading is one of the things we do best
[2014-11-28 17:45:23] coroner : it hasn't been that busy here yet though
[2014-11-28 17:45:54] coroner : one issue I have personally though is that the page doesn't fit on my screen entirely
[2014-11-28 17:46:00] coroner : so I need to scroll to see my positions
[2014-11-28 17:46:00] BitMEX_Sam : Ah
[2014-11-28 17:46:09] BitMEX_Sam : You can use ctrl + - to zoom out a bit
[2014-11-28 17:46:20] coroner : ah right good advice
[2014-11-28 17:46:21] BitMEX_Sam : seems to cause some issues with the charts, though, when you refresh
[2014-11-28 17:46:35] BitMEX_Sam : Working with TradingView on that one
[2014-11-28 17:47:06] BitMEX_Sam : You can also roll up the sidebar if you want to get the trollbox more in view, and resize it with this little control here ---------->
[2014-11-28 17:47:23] coroner : got it, cool
[2014-11-28 17:48:31] coroner : I think eventually this platform can become a market leader if you guys can get the fee structure right
[2014-11-28 17:48:58] BitMEX_Sam : Thanks, we appreciate that
[2014-11-28 17:49:47] coroner : on the other hand, you can tell by the tape at okcoin that it's filled to the brim with die hard gamblers and all they care about is insane leverage
[2014-11-28 17:50:13] coroner : unfortunately you'll probably need to attract those first in order to get the liquidity here :)
[2014-11-28 17:50:47] BitMEX_Sam : Haha yeah.
[2014-11-28 17:51:05] coroner : it's hilarious how much premium they pay over spot at times
[2014-11-28 17:51:23] BitMEX_Sam : We have a lead market maker who is usually here but is on London time
[2014-11-28 17:51:29] BitMEX_Sam : Puts up about 80k contracts on each side
[2014-11-28 17:51:59] coroner : that's about my size alone on okcoin
[2014-11-28 17:52:18] coroner : and I don't consider myself a huge player
[2014-11-28 17:52:32] BitMEX_Sam : Refresh me since I haven't traded there for a while, how large are the individual contracts
[2014-11-28 17:52:40] BitMEX_Sam : ofc that's also on 20x leverage, no?
[2014-11-28 17:53:06] coroner : that's about the net value in my account there
[2014-11-28 17:53:42] coroner : I would increase it if I had more confidence in their platform
[2014-11-28 17:54:03] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, I don't think their fee structure is maintainable
[2014-11-28 17:54:16] BitMEX_Sam : Likely a product of venture capitalism and "traction"
[2014-11-28 17:55:45] coroner : maybe they have a good PR department in Chinese
[2014-11-28 17:56:59] BitMEX_Sam : I don't think a lot of it resonates with western people
[2014-11-28 17:57:11] BitMEX_Sam : Re: the points systems, rewards, and all that
[2014-11-28 17:57:18] BitMEX_Sam : Most people just want to trade.
[2014-11-28 17:57:26] coroner : ya I don't care about the rewards thing
[2014-11-28 18:57:09] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: I put your open position into the top left widget for quicker reference, if you refresh you should see it
[2014-11-28 19:09:56] coroner : it's still in the same spot
[2014-11-28 19:10:02] coroner : let me logout
[2014-11-28 19:10:42] coroner : nope still the same
[2014-11-28 19:11:02] BitMEX_Arthur : which widget are u looking at?
[2014-11-28 19:11:17] BitMEX_Arthur : should see it in the "Selected Contract" widget
[2014-11-28 19:12:38] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Ah yeah not the entire position details, it won't fit up there. But your current position is now listed up top.
[2014-11-28 19:13:03] coroner : oh yeah got it
[2014-11-29 05:47:51] rhk : BitMEX_Arthur: will the BTC deposit address ever change? or is it safe to always send deposits to the same (current) address?
[2014-11-29 06:23:25] BitMEX_Arthur : They will stay the same
[2014-11-29 06:36:03] BitMEX_Wally : rhk: If the deposit address changes (we reserve the right to do so for security or operations) then old addresses will still be safe to send to.
[2014-11-29 06:36:28] rhk : ok th
[2014-11-29 06:36:30] rhk : thx
[2014-11-29 17:42:00] BitMEX_Sam : Hey guys, how's it going
[2014-11-29 17:42:15] BitMEX_Sam : sjovani: Replying to your email right now
[2014-11-29 17:54:39] coroner : hi Sam, pretty good
[2014-11-29 17:54:51] coroner : just closed out a nice trade for profit
[2014-11-29 17:56:34] BitMEX_Sam : nicely done
[2014-11-29 17:57:09] BitMEX_Sam : How's the platform holding up for you @coroner?
[2014-11-29 17:57:36] coroner : good, everything seems fine
[2014-11-29 17:57:55] BitMEX_Sam : great
[2014-11-29 17:58:02] BitMEX_Sam : glad to see you making &btc;
[2014-11-29 17:58:19] BitMEX_Sam : market has been moving around quite a bit today
[2014-11-29 18:01:09] coroner : the futures were way overprices
[2014-11-29 18:01:12] coroner : overpriced*
[2014-11-29 18:01:18] coroner : was just a matter of time for that to come in
[2014-11-29 18:01:29] BitMEX_Sam : They usually trade at a premium to spot for some time,
[2014-11-29 18:01:33] BitMEX_Sam : but yeah they were not reacting very quickly
[2014-11-29 18:02:05] coroner : I'm trading manually so sometimes I'm just too slow
[2014-11-29 18:02:27] BitMEX_Sam : If you're interested in trying a bot check out our market maker https://github.com/BitMEX/market-maker
[2014-11-29 18:02:39] BitMEX_Sam : You can dry-run it or run it on our testnet site
[2014-11-29 18:02:49] coroner : a guy is coding a bot for me
[2014-11-29 18:02:55] coroner : I kinda hired him
[2014-11-29 18:03:00] coroner : he's coding it in nodejs
[2014-11-29 18:03:01] BitMEX_Sam : At the least it's a good platform for building a bot, since the API calls are all there
[2014-11-29 18:03:03] BitMEX_Sam : ah cool.
[2014-11-29 18:03:13] BitMEX_Sam : I write node most of the time, have him email me if he has questions
[2014-11-29 18:03:21] coroner : cool will do
[2014-11-29 18:03:27] BitMEX_Sam : The market-maker bot above has a reference implementation of our permanent API scheme using HMAC sigs
[2014-11-29 18:03:35] BitMEX_Sam : Should be a good reference for anything you build
[2014-11-29 18:03:52] coroner : that's going to be very helpful indeed
[2014-11-29 18:04:00] BitMEX_Sam : Oh we also have one other thing
[2014-11-29 18:04:13] BitMEX_Sam : Send him http://restunited.com/releases/369317049552340527/wrappers
[2014-11-29 18:04:52] BitMEX_Sam : Also send him https://www.npmjs.org/package/swagger-client, our API follows the swagger spec.
[2014-11-29 18:05:05] BitMEX_Sam : It will basically auto-generate an API connector for Node.
[2014-11-29 18:05:44] coroner : awesome!
[2014-11-29 18:06:03] coroner : that will definitely help
[2014-11-29 18:07:26] BitMEX_Sam : The swagger spec is one of the better things to happen to REST APIs these days - our interactive explorer (https://www.bitmex.com/api/explorer/) is completely auto-generated from the actual code running the API.
[2014-11-29 18:07:32] BitMEX_Sam : Every time we make a change it will be reflected there.
[2014-11-29 18:08:08] coroner : very nice .. you know programming has really evolved compared to 10 years ago when I used to do it
[2014-11-29 18:08:19] coroner : it's hard to keep track of all these build environments and things
[2014-11-29 18:09:14] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, it's practically a race
[2014-11-29 18:09:24] BitMEX_Sam : As soon as you get used to a technology, it's old hat and something else has taken its place
[2014-11-29 18:09:49] BitMEX_Sam : The only way to stay on top of it is to read... constantly
[2014-11-29 18:13:32] coroner : I'm currently doing that. Have you ever looked at clojure?
[2014-11-29 18:14:07] coroner : I've been playing around with that language to build the trade logic, clojurescript compiles to javascript so we can run it on node
[2014-11-29 18:14:30] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Yeah I built a first prototype of BitMEX on clojurescript
[2014-11-29 18:14:38] BitMEX_Sam : It's great tbh
[2014-11-29 18:14:57] BitMEX_Sam : I just didn't think it was mature enough at the time, and that I couldn't find programmers to hire that would know it
[2014-11-29 18:15:19] BitMEX_Sam : Clojure is definitely a superior language to Javascript though, but JS isn't so bad most of the time
[2014-11-29 18:16:51] BitMEX_Sam : I generally do trading bots in Python though. Simple, easy to use, stronger type system than JS, decent threading model
[2014-11-29 18:22:03] laisee : looking at the market maker sample, is it being used for Bitmex?
[2014-11-29 18:22:31] coroner : BitMEX_Sam: I was very impressed with core.async
[2014-11-29 18:22:51] BitMEX_Sam : laisee: Yeah, I can see in the logs that some people are using it
[2014-11-29 18:23:24] BitMEX_Sam : coroner: Yeah, it's great. Have been meaning to give it a good look, for the time being Promises in JS have satisfied the need for me
[2014-11-29 18:24:01] coroner : we're working with promises on the server end and building the trade logic based on core.async, we'll have many different bots running at the same time
[2014-11-29 18:25:22] BitMEX_Sam : Server? Is this just a trading bot or something else?
[2014-11-29 18:27:31] coroner : we're building a framework that talks to several brokers and runs the bots on amazon lambda
[2014-11-29 18:27:42] coroner : i'm also trading options on the us stock market
[2014-11-29 18:28:24] coroner : so we have a server that knows the entire portfolio and dispatches new data to the bots
[2014-11-29 18:29:27] BitMEX_Sam : Ah interesting.
[2014-11-29 18:29:35] BitMEX_Sam : Lambda is fantastic
[2014-11-29 18:30:07] coroner : i haven't actually tested it yet unfortunately.. we just have a concept now and a very basic test environment
[2014-11-29 18:30:33] BitMEX_Sam : I haven't been able to get into the lambda pre-release yet
[2014-11-29 18:30:39] coroner : neither have we..
[2014-11-29 18:30:41] BitMEX_Sam : I'm not sure if it makes sense for trading, though. The latency might not be great
[2014-11-29 18:31:09] BitMEX_Sam : Considering that the actual trade requests are not really all that intensive, it might just make sense to spin up a dedicated VPS or two and deal with it
[2014-11-29 18:31:21] BitMEX_Sam : It's mostly I/O after all
[2014-11-29 18:31:21] coroner : i have a cpu intensive algorithm for option trading strategies which doesn't get affected much by a few seconds of latency
[2014-11-29 18:31:47] BitMEX_Sam : Ah
[2014-11-29 18:31:55] BitMEX_Sam : We'll see how it performs when it opens up, can't wait
[2014-11-29 18:31:58] coroner : so that's mostly for options, I agree that for bitcoin arbitrage like strategies latency matters more
[2014-11-29 18:32:31] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah. Would love to build something that could move fiat across exchanges and could hedge on BitMEX while doing so
[2014-11-29 18:32:37] BitMEX_Sam : Pretty involved, though
[2014-11-29 18:32:51] BitMEX_Sam : I do a fair amount of arb but it's generally basic
[2014-11-29 18:33:06] coroner : yeah especially because you're dealing with money
[2014-11-29 18:33:16] coroner : the logic itself is not that complicated but it cannot be wrong :)
[2014-11-29 18:33:50] BitMEX_Sam : Exactly that