This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2015-03-27 14:13:43] KB : I mean below
[2015-03-27 14:14:35] KB : Bitfinex: $248, my ask $246
[2015-03-27 14:14:37] BitMEX_Arthur : seems like you are getting some fills
[2015-03-27 14:15:21] KB : well, consindering that I made a really great offer, very little has been filled so far
[2015-03-27 14:17:11] KB : I am willing to take an instant loss and it still takes forever
[2015-03-27 14:17:54] j8 : well, 1800 contracts sold at 199.90 just moments before you posted it
[2015-03-27 14:18:12] j8 : might be throwing off the bots
[2015-03-27 14:19:11] KB : that was a mistake though
[2015-03-27 14:20:49] KB : almost $3 difference now
[2015-03-27 14:22:19] KB : $3, can't get any better
[2015-03-27 14:23:50] j8 : why so eager to short?
[2015-03-27 14:24:27] j8 : what do you know that i don't :)
[2015-03-27 14:25:29] KB : let's see
[2015-03-27 14:27:40] KB : some part of shorting is always hedging first
[2015-03-27 14:27:54] BitMEX_Arthur : :)
[2015-03-27 14:28:39] KB : I am still just playing around mostly to get to know this platform, not trading for the money
[2015-03-27 14:38:45] goat : i am obviously trading for the money, but using this platform as part of trying to set up a real strategy... using hedging etc
[2015-03-27 14:39:15] goat : and trust this site a lot more than huobi or okc lol
[2015-03-27 14:42:31] KB : having traded on Mt. Gox, Bitstamp, Bter, Bitfinex, OKCoin and a few other that no longer exist, BitMEX is the only exchange that even tries to be professional
[2015-03-27 14:43:58] KB : platform, the trading engine, API, documentation and support of BitMEX is excellent
[2015-03-27 14:44:22] KB : hope more traders realize that soon, too
[2015-03-27 14:45:47] KB : what usually happens though, is that the largest exchange needs to mess up really bad for traders to switch
[2015-03-27 14:46:26] KB : when Mt. Gox went down, everyone went to Bitstamp, when Bitstamp had withdrawal problems and was hacked, everyone went to Bitfinex or OKCoin
[2015-03-27 14:47:10] j8 : it
[2015-03-27 14:47:29] j8 : i can understand that it's difficult to start a liquid futures market
[2015-03-27 14:47:45] KB : lots of key people already left OKCoin, just need to wait for Bitfinex and OKCoin to go down, just a matter of time
[2015-03-27 14:49:19] KB : Bitfinex certainly has no idea what it's doing, they still run their platform on the Ruby code they stole from Bitconica, which was the first programming project of a 14 year old (I am not making this up)
[2015-03-27 14:51:11] BitMEX_Arthur : I thot they switched to Alpha Point
[2015-03-27 14:52:05] KB : when did that happen? Users still complain regularly about lag.
[2015-03-27 14:53:18] BitMEX_Sam : That's insane re: Bitcoinica
[2015-03-27 14:53:19] BitMEX_Arthur : I was told q1 but maybe that's not the case
[2015-03-27 14:53:36] rhk : thats correct.. they switched earlier this year
[2015-03-27 14:53:48] rhk : the front end is still the same, but the matching engine is running on alpha point
[2015-03-27 14:53:54] KB : has it gotten better then?
[2015-03-27 14:55:02] KB : here is the interview with the kid that made Bitcoinica: http://coinabul.tumblr.com/post/24022841613/10qs-zhou-tong-bitcoinica
[2015-03-27 14:56:21] KB : there was a Bitcoin talk some time back when Bitfinex claimed they rewrote the engine
[2015-03-27 14:56:54] KB : another user exposed them by exploiting a known bug in the Bitcoinica code base, so I don't believe anything they are saying
[2015-03-27 14:59:06] KB : some one working for Bitfinex who left the company even exposed that once they just lent out users' funds to some Hong Kong investor of theirs without asking their users for persmission or even informing them
[2015-03-27 15:00:28] BitMEX_Sam : Wow.
[2015-03-27 15:00:37] BitMEX_Sam : I can imagine a Ruby trading engine would perform terribly, good that they finally got off of it
[2015-03-27 15:00:55] BitMEX_Sam : as for lending out user funds... par for the course in Bitcoinland unfortunately
[2015-03-27 15:03:59] KB : I don't understand who some one can write a trading engine in a untyped language
[2015-03-27 15:04:45] KB : Bitfinex is also famous for undoing trades when the price dropped too quickly
[2015-03-27 15:04:47] BitMEX_Sam : At least it has proper number types, unlike JS
[2015-03-27 15:05:09] BitMEX_Sam : Back when buttercoin was open-source they tried to implement the matching engine in Node
[2015-03-27 15:06:13] KB : ...only amateurs in Bitcoin
[2015-03-27 15:06:47] BitMEX_Sam : It's getting better, but we're not out of the dark ages yet
[2015-03-27 15:06:49] KB : Sam, what is your trading engine written in?
[2015-03-27 15:06:57] BitMEX_Sam : Kdb+/q
[2015-03-27 15:08:29] KB : did not know that before, seems to be a database only?
[2015-03-27 15:09:09] KB : I meant, what language is the matching engine written in?
[2015-03-27 15:09:18] BitMEX_Sam : It's commonly used in finance for building trading applications. It's a vector-based DB with a scripting language, 'q'
[2015-03-27 15:09:29] BitMEX_Sam : So the matching engine is in q
[2015-03-27 15:12:13] KB : not familiar with it, but at least it's not JS, Ruby, Python or PHP
[2015-03-27 15:12:46] BitMEX_Sam : No of course not. KDB+ is best tool out there for the job without a doubt
[2015-03-27 15:13:00] BitMEX_Arthur : very esoteric, i wouldn't have known what it was other than we used it for our end of day pnl on the trading desk
[2015-03-27 15:13:05] BitMEX_Sam : It's a big part of our technological edge over the competition
[2015-03-27 15:13:10] BitMEX_Arthur : and back testing certain strategies
[2015-03-27 15:14:23] j8 : new to me too. good to know
[2015-03-27 15:18:45] KB : can't find the original sources for my Bitfinex claims, only this post which goes into some of this: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2c4kkg/what_do_we_know_about_bitfinex/
[2015-03-27 15:21:31] BitMEX_Sam : Interesting
[2015-03-27 15:25:45] KB : how you could have known from the beginning that Karpeles (of Mt. Gox) was completely incompetent (while calling himself a security expert): http://imgur.com/xMeW43a
[2015-03-27 15:26:19] BitMEX_Sam : I've done enough PHP programming to know to stay far, far away from anyone who would think it's a good idea to implement a trading engine in it
[2015-03-27 15:26:30] BitMEX_Sam : It's even more damning if you watch what he used to post on bitcointalk
[2015-03-27 15:29:23] KB : while I am at it and in case anyone wonders, all the Chinese exchanges do fake their volume
[2015-03-27 15:29:39] KB : just look at their order books and the trades that go through for a while
[2015-03-27 15:29:45] BitMEX_Arthur : that's obvious they don't even try to hide it
[2015-03-27 15:29:51] BitMEX_Arthur : but chinese traders don't care
[2015-03-27 15:29:55] BitMEX_Sam : They even admit it. http://www.coindesk.com/asian-exchanges-adopt-controversial-counting-method-futures-trades/
[2015-03-27 15:29:56] KB : in reality, they don't do more volume then BTC-e
[2015-03-27 15:30:30] KB : yes, but they also fake their spot trades
[2015-03-27 15:30:56] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah i think everyone has just accepted that's how china is
[2015-03-27 15:31:13] BitMEX_Arthur : living in Hong Kong for almost 7 years, China is a world unto its own
[2015-03-27 15:31:31] KB : and btw, Kranken, which seems to be popular in Europe, is also run by amateurs
[2015-03-27 15:31:46] BitMEX_Arthur : Jesse and the gang
[2015-03-27 15:31:53] KB : yes
[2015-03-27 15:31:54] BitMEX_Arthur : Brock's got their back
[2015-03-27 15:32:04] BitMEX_Arthur : prob why they are still around
[2015-03-27 15:32:06] BitMEX_Sam : Kraken actually struck me as well put together compared to most
[2015-03-27 15:32:32] BitMEX_Sam : But I'll be honest, I haven't traded there
[2015-03-27 15:32:49] KB : I thought so too in the beginning, I have traded there ;-)
[2015-03-27 15:34:24] KB : strangely enough, BTC-e is the only old and popular exchange that I can't complain about in terms of executing. Their API is crap though and there is truly no support. And of course, no one knows who these guys are.
[2015-03-27 15:34:43] KB : so I wouldn't trade there either
[2015-03-27 15:34:46] BitMEX_Arthur : i guess in these days of hyper regulated exchanges people like that
[2015-03-27 15:35:22] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah their API is not great, parts of the docs are way out of date but it does operate, and has for much longer than most
[2015-03-27 15:35:34] BitMEX_Sam : I've heard horror stories about the support though
[2015-03-27 15:36:02] BitMEX_Arthur : I fucked up the beneficiary name on a deposit there once, took me over a month to get my cash back
[2015-03-27 15:36:15] KB : they literally don't answer anything ever
[2015-03-27 15:36:45] KB : I wouldn't be surprised if they just take off one day with all the users' funds
[2015-03-27 15:36:50] BitMEX_Sam : Had a lot of fun with CampBX a few weeks back, they have a bizarre hot wallet system that has a major bug in combination with their daily withdrawal limits
[2015-03-27 15:37:11] BitMEX_Sam : basically if there are no hots available, you get an error message, but your daily limit is still docked by the amount you tried with withdraw
[2015-03-27 15:37:28] BitMEX_Sam : and there are almost never hots available. Took me over 2 weeks to get about a dozen coins out
[2015-03-27 15:37:55] KB : ok, haven't tried CampBX and many of the smaller exchanges
[2015-03-27 15:37:59] BitMEX_Sam : Should have seen the writing on the wall with them, but there was some profitable arb for quite some time
[2015-03-27 15:38:22] KB : Sam, good to know that you've been around the Bitcoin world :-)
[2015-03-27 15:38:24] BitMEX_Sam : AFAIK they are still solvent, just not really working on the exchange anymore
[2015-03-27 15:38:35] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah I've been around since 09
[2015-03-27 15:38:38] BitMEX_Sam : Used to mine on my laptop
[2015-03-27 15:38:44] BitMEX_Sam : Wish I had done more of that. :)
[2015-03-27 15:39:12] KB : I mined too, but on GPUs, when Litecoin was still trading at $1-3
[2015-03-27 15:39:50] KB : one day, one GPU caught flames and I decided to stop (way too early though)
[2015-03-27 15:40:27] BitMEX_Sam : Hahah
[2015-03-27 15:40:40] BitMEX_Sam : I remember the day we hit $5. I had been pretty much out of the game and focusing on my job until then
[2015-03-27 15:40:52] BitMEX_Sam : That was the day I wished I had taken it way more seriously.
[2015-03-27 15:41:10] KB : I rode it up to $48 and then got out :-)
[2015-03-27 15:41:15] BitMEX_Arthur : I had never heard of Bitcoin until April 2013 :(
[2015-03-27 15:42:10] KB : some one told me about it in 2010 and I just told him "what a stupid idea" :-D
[2015-03-27 15:42:25] BitMEX_Sam : Ah yeah, I rode that rollercoaster up to $30 and back down
[2015-03-27 15:42:31] BitMEX_Sam : That was 2011 IIRC
[2015-03-27 15:42:53] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah most people thought it was stupid. Many people still do, the utility isn't there for them yet. It will be
[2015-03-27 15:43:11] KB : I started trading in 2013 before the $256 bubble
[2015-03-27 15:46:57] KB : I really hope BitMEX takes off
[2015-03-27 15:47:39] KB : are you funded for the next few years in case it takes some time?
[2015-03-27 15:49:16] BitMEX_Sam : We have the means to continue, yes
[2015-03-27 15:49:27] KB : great
[2015-03-27 15:49:40] BitMEX_Sam : We're really passionate about the platform and what it can mean for Bitcoin - we're not about to give up on it any time soon
[2015-03-27 15:50:05] KB : have you considered adding FIX?
[2015-03-27 15:50:14] BitMEX_Sam : I think it's my best work, I want to see it live a long life.
[2015-03-27 15:50:44] KB : Wall Street is expected to enter Bitcoin soon. They will expect exchanges to offer FIX.
[2015-03-27 15:50:53] BitMEX_Sam : KB: Our fields follow the FIX spec, we've been working on a server implementation but it will take some time
[2015-03-27 15:51:11] KB : awesome
[2015-03-27 15:51:38] KB : there is QuickFIX for C++, then there is also a Java and .NET version of QuickFIX
[2015-03-27 15:51:50] KB : that could speed up development
[2015-03-27 15:52:36] BitMEX_Sam : Yep - QuickFIX is what we've been looking at
[2015-03-27 15:58:50] KB : I am expecting Bitcoin to drop hard when it passes $240 again, there are too many positions tied up above $250
[2015-03-27 16:01:16] BitMEX_Sam : OKC's new 20x policy should lead to faster margin calls on the way down
[2015-03-27 16:09:57] KB : 20x is fun though if you are on the right side. I shorted LTC down from $1.80 to $1.20 when BTC dropped to under $200 recently and then went long. Made 5x in a few days.
[2015-03-27 16:10:36] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, that's a hoot if you call it right
[2015-03-27 16:11:39] KB : but generally, everything above 10x leverage is insane while Bitcoin is still so volatile
[2015-03-27 16:12:05] KB : I like your margin policy, it makes a lot of sense
[2015-03-27 16:12:40] KB : incremental forced liquidation is also a great idea
[2015-03-27 16:14:36] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, it helps prevent margin call cascades
[2015-03-27 16:14:38] BitMEX_Sam : And gives you a chance to survive margin call which is a nice bonus. On most platforms you're just bankrupt as soon as you hit it
[2015-03-27 16:22:19] KB : I was recently only $1 away from a margin call (where Bitfinex was already trading passed my liquidiation price), but no one dared to hit the ask at BitMEX to trigger my margin call
[2015-03-27 16:22:38] KB : I would not have minded because I wanted to know how I would be liquidated
[2015-03-27 16:23:21] KB : the liquidation price was only $0.12 above my average entry, so I would not have lost much anyway, because I was using 98% margin (to force it)
[2015-03-27 16:24:16] BitMEX_Sam : Ah, just testing it out?
[2015-03-27 16:24:51] BitMEX_Sam : Not sure if we really advertise this well enough but there is https://testnet.bitmex.com if you want to know how the system behaves, without putting any actual money at risk
[2015-03-27 16:25:02] KB : yeah, I want to make sure I truly understand your platform before trading for real
[2015-03-27 16:25:04] BitMEX_Sam : It's the exact same system, only running on Testnet Bitcoin
[2015-03-27 16:25:57] KB : I knew of your Testnet. It's great that you offer it, but I wanted to try it under real conditions with market maker and other traders, and all that.
[2015-03-27 16:27:56] BitMEX_Sam : Ah yes. There are some real traders on testnet, but many more bots
[2015-03-27 16:28:35] KB : no other exchange offers a testnet as far as I know
[2015-03-27 16:31:42] BitMEX_Sam : I don't know of any others either, which is surprising
[2015-03-27 16:32:05] KB : here is an interesting paper on anticipating market crashes based on past Bitcoin data: http://arxiv.org/abs/1503.06704
[2015-03-27 16:32:05] BitMEX_Sam : After all, any application needs to have a staging environment regardless, why not open it up to the internet
[2015-03-27 16:32:14] KB : right
[2015-03-27 16:33:02] KB : that paper above might be useful to restrict limit prices or increase margin requirements dynamically when liquidity is low
[2015-03-27 16:41:37] BitMEX_Sam : Interesting
[2015-03-28 14:00:01] robborden : these timestamps on recent trades are local times right?
[2015-03-28 14:12:03] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, all times are local unless explicitly stated as GMT
[2015-03-28 14:15:57] KB : 100 XBUJ15 contracts for sale at $250 (almost $3 discount to Bitfinex) if you want to buy some
[2015-03-28 14:32:47] KB : no one?
[2015-03-28 14:44:02] KB : unbelievable how hard is it to get filled
[2015-03-28 16:27:36] rhk : i'll buy some now
[2015-03-28 19:29:42] j8 : i want some.
[2015-03-29 01:16:27] leathan : poop
[2015-03-29 01:16:49] leathan : just testen ^_^;;
[2015-03-29 01:19:14] BitMEX_Arthur : Hi
[2015-03-29 01:22:41] leathan : How is HK
[2015-03-29 01:25:18] BitMEX_Arthur : Good
[2015-03-29 09:19:31] BitMEX_Sam : here comes the volatility
[2015-03-29 09:43:41] KB : I am good :-)
[2015-03-29 09:44:18] KB : how come XBTJ15 is $10 above Bitfinex?
[2015-03-29 09:46:47] KB : is the market maker still sleeping?
[2015-03-29 09:46:54] joequant : yes
[2015-03-29 09:47:17] joequant : XBTJ15 is a new future
[2015-03-29 09:47:34] joequant : looking at the trade pattern people haven't been getting the bots to work on XBTj15
[2015-03-29 09:51:20] KB : session margin is preventing me from taking out those bids in XBTJ15
[2015-03-29 09:51:45] KB : anyone else care to pick up free money?
[2015-03-29 09:51:59] joequant : I've already gotten my share :-)
[2015-03-29 09:54:29] KB : thanks, that enabled me to take out $247 due to the increased unrealized profits
[2015-03-29 10:10:12] KB : almost all volume was above $240. This should collapse shortly.
[2015-03-29 10:12:52] joequant : What I think will happen is that it will get up to about 243, stay there for a while, and then someone will dump.
[2015-03-29 10:13:17] KB : agree
[2015-03-29 10:13:18] joequant : There seem to be people that are trying to do a controlled dump.
[2015-03-29 10:14:04] KB : I am not sure it's controlled, but it sure it hold up much longer than I thought
[2015-03-29 10:14:22] joequant : The pattern for the last few days is that someone dumps, then the market recovers, and once it is stable, there's another dump.
[2015-03-29 10:15:43] KB : some people are still bullish, what at some point comes the realization that they are on the wrong site when all longs are losing money and the cascades begin
[2015-03-29 10:16:26] KB : both margin of long and short positions is near ATH for Bitfinex, so some one will be margin called
[2015-03-29 10:31:32] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah
[2015-03-29 10:31:38] BitMEX_Arthur : going to be a blood bath
[2015-03-29 10:55:21] KB : did you see what just happened on Bitfinex?
[2015-03-29 10:56:23] KB : 483 BTC traded $250 and next trade was 0.4823 BTC traded at $242.74
[2015-03-29 11:00:42] BitMEX_Arthur : SQUEEZE
[2015-03-29 11:00:55] BitMEX_Arthur : someone when stop hunting an found gold
[2015-03-29 11:03:17] joequant : Bitfinex has a thin order book so it's common to burn through the orders when the market moves suddenly.
[2015-03-29 11:08:41] KB : Bitfinex has the thickest order book of all Bitcoin exchanges
[2015-03-29 11:09:31] KB : unfortunately, it follows OKCoin even though OKCoin has less liqiudity than Bitstamp and BTC-e
[2015-03-29 11:10:14] KB : and lots of fake volume
[2015-03-29 11:39:01] BitMEX_Sam : Lots of bots running scared when there's real volatility
[2015-03-29 15:21:24] uiop : KB: everything follows huobi spot
[2015-03-29 15:21:31] uiop : huobi is one true prophet
[2015-03-29 15:28:13] joequant : Huobi spot follows bitvc futures.
[2015-03-29 16:32:22] uiop : joequant: wut !?
[2015-03-29 16:34:25] uiop : joequant: that's probably the guy loading up 20x before he moves spot to his liking
[2015-03-29 19:29:30] KB : OKCoin futures have more liquidity than any other Bitcoin futures market
[2015-03-29 19:31:04] KB : OKCoin and Huobi are comparable in liquidity when it comes to Bitcoin spot
[2015-03-29 19:31:32] KB : unfortunately, BitcoinWisdom does not show much of the order book of OKCoin spot
[2015-03-29 19:36:18] KB : but Coinarama seems to suggest that Huobi is leading slightly, but also more volatile so it's not easy to access
[2015-03-29 19:36:23] KB : *asses
[2015-03-29 21:22:28] j8 : asses?
[2015-03-29 22:15:50] KB : sorry, not asses, I meant "assess"
[2015-03-30 13:29:57] TrevinHofmann : Sorry for the long delay @KB - haven't been trading lately
[2015-03-30 13:30:03] TrevinHofmann : >Hey Trevin, how exactly was your margin call executed? Where did you get filled?
[2015-03-30 13:30:11] TrevinHofmann : It was around: [2015-03-04 21:57:22] when BTC was within approximately the $275-$285 range (plus quanto premium).
[2015-03-30 13:30:20] TrevinHofmann : I was force liquidated to sell about 3700 XBTH15 contracts for $235-$240.
[2015-03-30 13:30:43] TrevinHofmann : They were just flash sold at whatever the best offer was at the time.
[2015-03-30 14:28:38] j8 : about how much balance were you left with?
[2015-03-30 17:00:48] joequant : What I think might have happened, was that someone that had a short position was trying to increase his margin.
[2015-03-30 17:00:55] joequant : And pushed the price down.
[2015-03-30 17:01:19] joequant : Since the order book was thin
[2015-03-30 17:01:30] joequant : It got pushed down to 240
[2015-03-30 17:02:20] j8 : i'd call it a snipe for sure
[2015-03-30 17:07:56] j8 : sometimes all the top orders seem to be the same market maker bot, and they all get pulled at the same time to reprice. the books can empty real fast for a moment, even with no trading
[2015-03-30 19:09:51] KB : that's exactly the problem. When there is only one market maker, he can effectively decide where prices trade regardless of the price of the underlying
[2015-03-30 19:10:15] KB : and the bid/ask spread is way too large in most cases
[2015-03-30 19:11:39] KB : and if the bid/ask spread is acceptable, then you only need to take out the tiny amount of equivalent BTC and the market maker does not refresh the bid/ask at the same price, you always get a much worse price for the next trade
[2015-03-30 19:12:26] KB : it feels exactly like trading against a bucket shop when their are no dedicated market makers that have a contractual obligation to quote an acceptable minimum spread
[2015-03-30 19:13:01] KB : I think it's actually worse than not having market makers at all then at least you know that there is no real liquidity
[2015-03-30 19:17:39] j8 : really what's needed is several competing market makers.
[2015-03-30 19:18:23] j8 : and to be fair, they have released a python bot to do that
[2015-03-30 19:21:10] j8 : the spreads do tighten if you outbid them
[2015-03-30 19:23:02] KB : I do, but they are still not good enough
[2015-03-30 19:23:36] KB : i've played the market maker as much as possible but there are limits on how far you can push him to improve the bid/ask
[2015-03-30 19:23:58] KB : and even then, it's unacceptable
[2015-03-30 19:25:16] KB : volume is not going to increase if you can't even trade small size on here
[2015-03-30 19:25:49] j8 : you need liquidity to get liquidity, is the basic problem
[2015-03-30 19:26:07] KB : exactly
[2015-03-30 19:26:40] KB : but market makers with too much power make it even worse
[2015-03-30 19:27:22] KB : I think that's the reason BitMEX has not taken off yet
[2015-03-30 19:28:20] j8 : i'm not sure i get what you're saying
[2015-03-30 19:29:14] j8 : there's no monopoly on it
[2015-03-30 19:30:42] j8 : if the spreads are bad there's opportunity for others to tighten it. but the tighter the spread the more volume you need for it to be worthwhile
[2015-03-30 19:31:28] j8 : and the less liquidity, the riskier it is to offer tight spreads
[2015-03-30 19:33:19] KB : as long as the order book is made by only one or two market maker, there is a monopoly on it
[2015-03-30 19:33:49] KB : and it makes no sense to put in tighter spreads if no one is going to fill them
[2015-03-30 19:34:25] KB : and if you do get filled, how do you exit your position? You have to trade against the market maker again.
[2015-03-30 19:44:40] KB : generally the market moves faster than you could get your fill without the market having moved too much
[2015-03-30 19:49:27] j8 : yeah i gave up trying to do short term trades here.. the last couple days this market was barely moving and okcoin futures were going wild
[2015-03-30 19:50:15] j8 : i know its cool to bash okcoin, but realistically...
[2015-03-30 19:51:20] KB : yeah, I also shortly considered going back to OKCoin
[2015-03-30 19:51:20] KB : yeah, I also shortly considered going back to OKCoin
[2015-03-30 19:51:31] KB : but I don't trust them
[2015-03-30 19:51:55] j8 : thats fair
[2015-03-30 19:52:08] j8 : its hard to trust anyone in this game
[2015-03-30 20:01:31] j8 : but i don't have a real reason to trust this exchange over them
[2015-03-30 20:15:35] j8 : and i need to keep a much bigger deposit here to safely keep the same size of position. so the total risk may actually be higher
[2015-03-30 20:47:15] BitMEX_Sam : j8: I agree re: trust, we try to be transparent to combat that but in the end the only thing that is going to make people trust us is to maintain a spotless record and a transparent platform
[2015-03-30 20:47:50] BitMEX_Sam : I think it's obvious we have a more conservative way of doing business than our competitors, but counterparty risk is still very real no matter where you put your bitcoin
[2015-03-30 20:49:00] j8 : i agree, trust is earned. there's not really much you can do in the short term other than continue to not generate distrust
[2015-03-30 20:49:18] BitMEX_Sam : Exactly.
[2015-03-30 20:51:36] BitMEX_Sam : Bitcoin is safer on BitMEX than just about any other exchange, so long as you trust us as the cofounders. I believe we're one of the only exchanges that stores all funds offline
[2015-03-30 20:51:43] BitMEX_Sam : Slow withdrawals are a feature, not a bug.
[2015-03-31 01:48:05] BitMEX_Arthur : Have we bottomed around $235?
[2015-03-31 01:50:50] j8 : i have no idea.
[2015-03-31 01:51:39] BitMEX_Arthur : pretty nice rebounds when the price as got down there
[2015-03-31 01:53:27] j8 : yeah i feel like this weekend was about someone accumulating coins
[2015-03-31 01:55:07] j8 : knowing that the market scares easily after the last two big moves down
[2015-03-31 01:55:38] BitMEX_Arthur : i would have thought we would have tested $200 again by now
[2015-03-31 01:55:41] BitMEX_Arthur : but maybe i'm just impatient
[2015-03-31 02:01:15] j8 : i would imagine spending some more time in the $220 area if the direction is down
[2015-03-31 02:02:11] BitMEX_Arthur : i imagine we must be around marginal cost for most miners
[2015-03-31 02:02:32] j8 : sub 200 lasted for about 4 days and i'd see that as a big capitulation after falling steadily from 375
[2015-03-31 02:03:05] j8 : for small miners maybe. i've heard the big guys do it much cheaper
[2015-03-31 02:03:20] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah i've heard around $100
[2015-03-31 02:03:27] BitMEX_Arthur : for guys like knc
[2015-03-31 02:03:51] j8 : yeah that's basically what i've heard as well.
[2015-03-31 02:08:24] j8 : i guess in the long run if volatility decreases they'll converge quite a bit.
[2015-03-31 02:14:27] BitMEX_Arthur : yeah
[2015-03-31 02:55:10] j8 : some people seem to think that means we have to dump to $100
[2015-03-31 02:55:47] j8 : but i'm not so sure about that.
[2015-03-31 02:57:42] j8 : its some complex economics for sure.
[2015-03-31 02:58:34] j8 : i'd see the price as driving the marginal cost up
[2015-03-31 03:00:49] j8 : and the higher marginal cost supports the price to some extent since it represents a more secure network
[2015-03-31 05:07:24] urielscott : Arthur are you available my Wednesday morning?
[2015-03-31 05:07:41] BitMEX_Arthur : yes
[2015-03-31 05:08:05] BitMEX_Arthur : send me a mail with a time and i will put it on my calendar
[2015-03-31 05:08:23] urielscott : Ok great. I will verify a time with those guys.
[2015-03-31 10:56:06] uiop : <BitMEX_Chat> (BitMEX_Arthur): i imagine we must be around marginal cost for most miners
[2015-03-31 10:56:13] uiop : all the shale oil cowboys gonna get rekt
[2015-03-31 10:57:05] uiop : maybe OPEC gonna underclock their cpus
[2015-03-31 10:57:24] uiop : oops i accidentally the analogy
[2015-03-31 12:21:11] BitMEX_Arthur : uiop: lol
[2015-03-31 17:09:45] KB : regarding the trust and risk topic: Since BitMEX has no hot wallet, the only risk you have on BitfMEX is that Arthur and Sam (both!) decide one day to just run off with your Bitcoins
[2015-03-31 17:10:21] KB : but this risk is not specific to Bitcoin, you always have the risk that someone holding money for you (usually fiat), does not give it back to you
[2015-03-31 17:11:28] KB : considering that their names are public and they have a reputation on the line, I doubt that it would be worth it for them to run with a few hundred Bitcoins (I don't think more there is much more on this exchange right now)
[2015-03-31 17:12:38] KB : this specific risk actually increases the more popular BitMEX gets (because there is more money on their exchange), but at that point it makes less sense to ruin a good thing
[2015-03-31 17:13:25] KB : based on the incentives, it would be irrational to rob you
[2015-03-31 17:13:52] KB : this does not necessarily apply to other exchanges
[2015-03-31 17:14:16] BitMEX_Sam : I can't comment on our holdings of course, but that's precisely why we are public about who we are
[2015-03-31 17:14:43] BitMEX_Sam : The point is, of course, that running the business should be more attractive than taking off with the money
[2015-03-31 17:15:01] BitMEX_Sam : For anonymous site owners in third world countries, it's obvious which way the incentives swing
[2015-03-31 17:16:10] BitMEX_Sam : But I for one am not very interested in the prospect of ruining our professional reputations. It's a business, not a ponzi
[2015-03-31 17:18:06] BitMEX_Sam : This is of course why customers should be wary of organizations with no transparent management. But of course we've all seen what can happen
[2015-03-31 17:19:13] KB : I am still concerned about artificial margin calls (which anyone with a couple of BTC can trigger right now), but I had an idea how you could prevent them
[2015-03-31 17:20:55] KB : since your contracts settle on the Bitfinex price, they should track the Bitfinex more or less
[2015-03-31 17:21:51] KB : so trades beyond a certain deviation (e.g. 10%) from the Bitfinex price should not be possible
[2015-03-31 17:22:16] KB : that way it's not possible to clear out the order book on BitMEX unless Bitfinex also moves that much
[2015-03-31 17:22:34] KB : what do you think?
[2015-03-31 17:22:53] BitMEX_Sam : That's a good idea and we've been talking about something similar internally, but we're working out the risks
[2015-03-31 17:23:20] KB : I see no downsides
[2015-03-31 17:23:52] BitMEX_Sam : We don't want to unnecessarily restrict movement in the market and account for what should be natural pricing variances between expiries
[2015-03-31 17:24:27] BitMEX_Sam : So any solution would need to take that into account. But I agree with your concern. So far our #1 goal has been to increase liquidity to help prevent this problem but as you know it's a slow process
[2015-03-31 17:25:16] KB : you should of course, account for premiums and discounts, but it's in nobody's interest to get a fill that is 10% away from the "true price" on Bitfinex, which your contracts are tied to anyway
[2015-03-31 17:25:55] KB : the only way to game this restriction would be to manipulate the Bitfinex price, but at this point, that would not be worth it
[2015-03-31 17:27:04] BitMEX_Sam : This is true. We'll have a chat internally. I agree that something should be done to make it safer to trade with leverage, but we need to fully explore that idea before implementation.
[2015-03-31 17:40:22] joequant : The problem is that if you have a 10% cap, you run into problems if bitfinex moves more than 10% suddenly.
[2015-03-31 17:40:48] joequant : At that point fair value will jump 10% and if you cap the price, the exchange will be locked.
[2015-03-31 17:41:15] joequant : Also, for the long dated futures, it's very easy for the future to trade at +10% premium above spot.
[2015-03-31 17:41:30] KB : no, because the 10% cap would adjust instantly automatically
[2015-03-31 17:41:39] joequant : That's the problem.
[2015-03-31 17:41:45] KB : why?
[2015-03-31 17:42:05] joequant : You have bid-ask at 245-250
[2015-03-31 17:42:10] KB : as I said, the premium should be accounted work
[2015-03-31 17:42:20] joequant : suppose bitmex jumps to 300
[2015-03-31 17:42:33] joequant : the bid ask is still at 245-250
[2015-03-31 17:42:36] joequant : now what?
[2015-03-31 17:43:14] joequant : this has happened before.
[2015-03-31 17:43:35] joequant : you might come up with a good rule.
[2015-03-31 17:43:40] BitMEX_Sam : Under this scheme asks would no longer be eligible to be placed under 270, nor bids above 330
[2015-03-31 17:43:49] KB : price never jumps 20% in 1 second
[2015-03-31 17:44:11] joequant : I've seen it happen over five minutes.
[2015-03-31 17:44:27] KB : at the same time that you would see trades happening, BitMEX would get those trades, so it would only take a few seconds for the cap to adjust
[2015-03-31 17:45:10] joequant : but you still have the old bids in place.
[2015-03-31 17:45:24] joequant : you might have a rule that prevents new bids.
[2015-03-31 17:45:30] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, that's not necessarily a problem,
[2015-03-31 17:45:42] BitMEX_Sam : We already do limit up/down of 20%. You can place low bids and high asks but not the other way around
[2015-03-31 17:45:51] KB : even if price does get stuck at $250 on BitMEX while Bitfinex is at $300, then you would not be able to trade $300 on BitMEX because of the session limits
[2015-03-31 17:46:09] KB : exactly, what Sam just said
[2015-03-31 17:46:14] BitMEX_Sam : Both limits in tandem could certainly lead to issues
[2015-03-31 17:46:55] KB : I don't see why
[2015-03-31 17:46:55] BitMEX_Sam : A limit system that follows the index would have to be a replacement for the usual session limit up/down.
[2015-03-31 17:47:41] KB : I would still keep the session limit because you still want to make sure that the counterparty can pay up
[2015-03-31 17:47:56] BitMEX_Sam : You could end up in a situation where the limits following the index collide with the session limits, e.g. 250 -> 300. The session limits would prevent any trading above 300
[2015-03-31 17:48:14] BitMEX_Sam : Well, it would take a larger move than that actually.
[2015-03-31 17:48:31] KB : the dynamic limit should only be there to protect against artificial margin calls
[2015-03-31 17:48:59] KB : the session limit would be just lower and upper bounds for the dynamic limit
[2015-03-31 17:49:37] KB : you should definitely examine all cases and test it on historical Bitfinex data, but right now I don't see any problems
[2015-03-31 17:49:42] joequant : you could do a dynamc limit but you have to take into account that for the longer dated options, the spread could be quite huge.
[2015-03-31 17:50:08] BitMEX_Sam : Hmm. Yeah, it could be done more transparently, e.g. not actually limiting trading, but simply limiting the range of the price input into the calculations that lead to liquidation
[2015-03-31 17:50:09] KB : spreads of $10 are still only 4%
[2015-03-31 17:50:56] joequant : I mean fair value for the september futures could be quite far from bitmex value.
[2015-03-31 17:50:57] KB : and beyond that, no one in their right mind, wants to pay $10 spreads
[2015-03-31 17:51:17] BitMEX_Sam : So a large price swing could still happen, but the system would know that it was artificial and not likely to cause bankruptcy by its volume and by its distance from spot
[2015-03-31 17:51:19] joequant : I can see 10% working for the 24 hour future.
[2015-03-31 17:51:22] KB : of course, premium needs to be accounted for
[2015-03-31 17:51:44] joequant : I don't see how 10% would work for september futures.
[2015-03-31 17:51:47] KB : 10% was just an example, it should probably be even less for XBUH24
[2015-03-31 17:52:05] joequant : And the quanto futures can go quite far from spot.
[2015-03-31 17:52:24] KB : yeah, right now it's about $7
[2015-03-31 17:53:47] KB : a dynamic limit like this might even incentivies market makers to offer better bid/ask spreads, because they would not get filled otherwise
[2015-03-31 17:54:13] KB : right now, you have no choice and a high risk of artificial margin calls
[2015-03-31 17:55:16] KB : right Sam, it should probably also be volume-weighted
[2015-03-31 17:55:30] KB : it's too easy right now to trade against yourself at any price you want with just a single contract
[2015-03-31 17:56:18] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, if the book is empty that is possible
[2015-03-31 17:57:03] KB : if BVOL had any open interest, then you could trade at the session limits with a couple bitcoins, and trigger margin calls
[2015-03-31 17:57:28] KB : you would need only 1 BTC as margin to take out the bids
[2015-03-31 17:57:58] BitMEX_Sam : Assuming users were fully leveraged, yes, there is some danger there
[2015-03-31 17:58:11] BitMEX_Wally : Check out the series guide for BVOL https://www.bitmex.com/app/seriesGuide/BVOL
[2015-03-31 17:58:23] BitMEX_Wally : We don't use the last traded price as the mark price
[2015-03-31 17:58:31] BitMEX_Wally : We blend it with observed volatility to prevent margin calls like that
[2015-03-31 17:58:52] BitMEX_Wally : We are thinking about rolling out something similar for the XBT and XBU futures
[2015-03-31 17:59:14] BitMEX_Wally : So the mark price (used for PNL and margin calls) would be blended with the Bitfinex price
[2015-03-31 17:59:32] joequant : The other issue is that the XBU contracts are too large.
[2015-03-31 17:59:33] KB : right now it says that I require 1 BTC to trade down to 40
[2015-03-31 17:59:53] joequant : With XBT, people can put in small bids-asks to do price discovery.
[2015-03-31 17:59:56] BitMEX_Sam : KB: See the last paragraph in the `Margin` section of the BVOL guide
[2015-03-31 18:00:03] joequant : It's not practical to do that with XBU.
[2015-03-31 18:00:58] BitMEX_Sam : The size of XBU contracts is consistent with other markets, of course with the exception of 24H
[2015-03-31 18:01:19] KB : I saw that but in the order controls it says I need only 1 BTC to place an order down to 40
[2015-03-31 18:01:20] BitMEX_Wally : Personally I like small contract sizes, we just need to prevent people triggering margin calls
[2015-03-31 18:01:53] KB : I think you should have consistently sized contracts
[2015-03-31 18:01:56] BitMEX_Wally : KB: You can place an order down to 40, but we won't use 40 to calculate whether to margin call people
[2015-03-31 18:01:58] BitMEX_Sam : KB: Yes, you could move the price, but it wouldn't trigger margin calls
[2015-03-31 18:02:11] KB : OK, good to know
[2015-03-31 18:02:43] BitMEX_Wally : KB: Yes, or move to a model where you specify quantity in Bitcoin rather than contracts
[2015-03-31 18:02:47] KB : instead of having contracts as small as XBU24H, you should allow fractional contracts
[2015-03-31 18:02:47] BitMEX_Wally : We have it implemented internally, but not exposed on the API yet.
[2015-03-31 18:03:29] KB : so instead of 100 XBU24H contracts right now, you would enter 0.1 contracts
[2015-03-31 18:03:41] KB : that way, it does not matter which contract you trade, they would be about the same size
[2015-03-31 18:03:50] KB : but you still allow traders to trade small
[2015-03-31 18:04:05] KB : it's visually also much easier to recognize the size of contracts
[2015-03-31 18:04:29] j8 : the session limits are a bit funny as it stands - can't someone manipulate the session close price? then its possible to move an empty book by 44% right around session close time
[2015-03-31 18:04:31] BitMEX_Wally : How about an order entry where you can say buy "0.50 XBT" worth of any contract? And we calculate the number of contracts?
[2015-03-31 18:05:37] KB : OKCoin does that, and it's not too bad, but I don't like that you don't know beforehand how many contracts you get
[2015-03-31 18:05:54] KB : it could be one contract more or less depending on the current price in XBU
[2015-03-31 18:06:12] joequant : actually if you use a VWAP to calculate the margin price that would fix the problem with margin calls.
[2015-03-31 18:06:18] KB : and it's harder to close positions, because the size varies
[2015-03-31 18:06:30] joequant : if someone puts a one contract bid that pushes down the price
[2015-03-31 18:06:39] joequant : that wouldnt trigger margin calls.
[2015-03-31 18:06:52] joequant : And either people would fill up the order book.
[2015-03-31 18:07:11] joequant : of the price would turn to the a "real" margin call.
[2015-03-31 18:07:13] KB : I think fractional contracts in addition to being able to enter the BTC exposure would be best
[2015-03-31 18:07:27] joequant : OKCoin doesn't really do fractional contracts
[2015-03-31 18:07:27] KB : fractional contracts are also common on retail forex
[2015-03-31 18:07:40] KB : even LMAX supports them
[2015-03-31 18:07:41] joequant : It's a pain in the rear end
[2015-03-31 18:07:51] joequant : The make it look like they do.
[2015-03-31 18:08:03] BitMEX_Wally : This is futures, not forex :)
[2015-03-31 18:08:06] joequant : But they have granuarlity
[2015-03-31 18:08:15] joequant : it's a PITA
[2015-03-31 18:08:44] joequant : if you want exactly 5 BTC
[2015-03-31 18:08:50] joequant : and enter that it
[2015-03-31 18:09:08] joequant : in you get a trade of 4.98 or 5.092
[2015-03-31 18:09:17] BitMEX_Wally : joequant: I know exactly what you mean. The problem of having a contract with fixed USD
[2015-03-31 18:09:54] joequant : the only reason for doing fractional contracts with XBU
[2015-03-31 18:10:01] joequant : is backward compatbility
[2015-03-31 18:10:26] joequant : i.e. it would be really confusing if 5 contracts meant different things for different contracts.
[2015-03-31 18:10:41] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, have a look at our API
[2015-03-31 18:10:57] BitMEX_Wally : We publish `simpleQty` on orders and positions
[2015-03-31 18:11:20] KB : entering BTC and fractional contracts actually work well together, better than just entering the desired BTC
[2015-03-31 18:11:31] BitMEX_Wally : `simpleQty` is a fixed number of the `underlying` (i.e. `XBT`) and is consistent across the different contract types and sizes
[2015-03-31 18:11:45] BitMEX_Wally : Well, if we set the contract size to 1 USD there's no need for fractional contracts
[2015-03-31 18:12:09] BitMEX_Wally : I like have `longs` in the database
[2015-03-31 18:12:32] joequant : yeah. float are terrible
[2015-03-31 18:12:36] BitMEX_Sam : floats are the bane of my existence
[2015-03-31 18:12:46] KB : you should keep longs in the database, just add the position of the decimal point as an int
[2015-03-31 18:13:25] joequant : I like using VWAP for margin limits better than a price cap.
[2015-03-31 18:13:43] joequant : Or VWAP / TWAP
[2015-03-31 18:13:44] BitMEX_Sam : We do all accounting in satoshis for that reason. If there were a fractional size defined at a reasonably small size it should operate equivalently
[2015-03-31 18:13:55] BitMEX_Wally : KB: Having an int that you then multiply by a constant to get a float, is just like having contract quantity (and int) that you multiply by a contract size. Which is what we have
[2015-03-31 18:13:58] BitMEX_Wally : We could have a contract size of $0.0001
[2015-03-31 18:14:45] KB : I never said to use floats, the fractional number is just a visual representation for the user
[2015-03-31 18:14:59] KB : it should all be integral numbers under the hood
[2015-03-31 18:15:23] BitMEX_Sam : of course
[2015-03-31 18:16:15] KB : so here is my proposal that would make everything consistent and awesome: introduce fractional contracts for all contracts and increase the contract size of XBU24H to something like the other XBU or XBT
[2015-03-31 18:16:27] KB : 1 contract = $100 or something reasonable
[2015-03-31 18:16:42] KB : with fractional contracts you can go down as far as you want
[2015-03-31 18:16:53] BitMEX_Sam : With fractional contracts yes, there would be no reason for the difference in size
[2015-03-31 18:17:02] BitMEX_Sam : I agree 100%. We're making a list right now, we've really enjoyed this discussion
[2015-03-31 18:17:18] KB : so 1/1000000 contracts = $0.0001
[2015-03-31 18:17:45] KB : much easier for everyone without losing the advantages of small contract sizes
[2015-03-31 18:18:14] KB : you can trade small and you can trade large
[2015-03-31 18:19:00] BitMEX_Sam : Yes - and XBU24H with its daily settlement is the perfect test vehicle for such a change
[2015-03-31 18:19:22] KB : 10k contracts at $100 per contract is $1 million worth of contracts
[2015-03-31 18:19:27] BitMEX_Sam : We're talking about it right now in our dev chat, we'll see what we can come up with. I'll let you guys know when something hits testnet
[2015-03-31 18:19:40] KB : so a contract size of $100 scales well in both directions
[2015-03-31 18:19:50] KB : awesome
[2015-03-31 18:20:33] BitMEX_Sam : We can always clear out the contracts on testnet and see what a full structure would look like, without hurting anybody's feelings
[2015-03-31 18:20:50] KB : VWAP instead of a %-cap can be gamed as long as wash trades are allowed
[2015-03-31 18:21:03] KB : but TWAP might work
[2015-03-31 18:21:09] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, we have considered removing the ability to wash but it's not a real fix
[2015-03-31 18:21:15] BitMEX_Sam : It's obviously trivial to simply set up two accounts
[2015-03-31 18:21:22] KB : but TWAP has the problem that it lags
[2015-03-31 18:21:55] BitMEX_Sam : A combination of TWAP of last and mark may be the way to go
[2015-03-31 18:22:25] BitMEX_Sam : that is, bitmex and underlying pricing in some weighted distribution
[2015-03-31 18:22:38] KB : you figure something out, but we need something to protect from artificial margin calls
[2015-03-31 18:23:52] BitMEX_Sam : I agree - preventing artificial margin calls will be priority
[2015-03-31 18:24:08] BitMEX_Sam : Even with incremental liquidation it can still be very painful
[2015-03-31 18:27:53] j8 : hey while we're at it - where the heck are the stop loss / trigger orders
[2015-03-31 18:29:22] KB : with that kind of liquidity, you don't want stop loss / trigger orders, at least not as market orders
[2015-03-31 18:29:44] KB : but that should be the trader's decision
[2015-03-31 18:29:48] j8 : no i don't think i would use them at this point. but it's pretty essential
[2015-03-31 18:29:53] KB : yes, I agree
[2015-03-31 18:30:00] BitMEX_Wally : The engine supports `StopLimit` order types, it's just not exposed in the API yet
[2015-03-31 18:30:06] KB : we should advanced orders
[2015-03-31 18:30:24] BitMEX_Wally : Mainly because the order entry control would be quite confusing: trigger price and limit price
[2015-03-31 18:30:37] j8 : i like the trigger style
[2015-03-31 18:30:51] BitMEX_Wally : We don't support `Stop` orders for the same reason we don't support `Market` orders
[2015-03-31 18:31:07] BitMEX_Wally : Even liquidations are carefully calculated `Limit` orders
[2015-03-31 18:31:26] j8 : trigger limit orders are great.
[2015-03-31 18:48:32] KB : combining my suggestion with joe's, a some %-cap based on 1-min VWAP of Bitfinex to prevent extreme short-term volatility on Bitfinex from blocking orders on BitMEX
[2015-03-31 22:12:06] KB : @BitMEX: the pricing tab in your XBT spreadsheet no longer works
[2015-03-31 22:12:24] KB : the XBU and BVOL spreadsheets also have issues
[2015-03-31 22:53:08] BitMEX_Arthur : KB: Let me check that, I made some changes to those yesterday thought I fixed them
[2015-03-31 22:57:37] BitMEX_Arthur : KB: XBU and BVOL look ok, what issue are you seeing? XBT there seems to be a bad refresh of the market data feed which I am fixing now
[2015-03-31 23:11:45] BitMEX_Arthur : The XBT pricing sheet should be fine now as well, please let me know if you are seeing any problems
[2015-03-31 23:17:35] KB : check the different tabs on XBU and BVOL, there was some fields with "N/A"
[2015-03-31 23:19:24] KB : regarding the fractional and simplified contracts: when you change the contract speficiations you should also change the XBT contract size to 1 Bitcoin, so that 1 XBT contract = 1 XBT
[2015-03-31 23:20:06] KB : it's inconvenient that 400 XBT contracts are worth 1 XBT right now
[2015-03-31 23:20:13] BitMEX_Arthur : KB: Try closing and reopening the sheets if you can, I can't seem to replicate your error might be a bad market data refresh
[2015-03-31 23:20:56] KB : and when you do the change the contract speficiation, you could just show existing orders and positions in the equivalent new XBT fractional contract
[2015-03-31 23:21:39] KB : so 1000 contracts of XBTJ15 would be converted to 0.25 XBT contracts
[2015-03-31 23:21:46] BitMEX_Arthur : There won't be any fractional contracts, just fractional XBT amounts, the optics will change,
[2015-03-31 23:22:04] BitMEX_Arthur : given the contract size of XBT series is small, using a Bitcoin notional as order input won't be an issue
[2015-03-31 23:22:50] KB : it's still unnecessary given that XBT contracts are quanto contracts
[2015-03-31 23:23:03] KB : I think it would really help adoption if you made things simpler
[2015-03-31 23:23:33] KB : there is no good reason for the current contract sizes and integral contract amounts
[2015-03-31 23:23:38] BitMEX_Arthur : We agree we want to make things simpler but still do them correctly
[2015-03-31 23:24:31] KB : every time contracts in XBTJ15 get filled, you have to look up your total exposure
[2015-03-31 23:24:37] KB : it's so unnecessary
[2015-03-31 23:25:25] BitMEX_Arthur : KB: There are two camps on this issue, which is why we want to give users the choice
[2015-03-31 23:25:45] BitMEX_Arthur : some traders prefer to see contracts, I am one of those types, but I see why you are annoyed
[2015-03-31 23:26:41] KB : you would still see contracts, just contracts that don't require an arbitrary mapping
[2015-03-31 23:27:21] KB : the current contract specification just introduce artificial complexity, no one needs that or wants that
[2015-03-31 23:28:15] KB : you are going to benefit hugely from making a few smart changes while your exchange is still tiny
[2015-03-31 23:28:26] KB : it won't even break anything if you do it right
[2015-03-31 23:28:50] KB : contracts will just be displayed differently
[2015-03-31 23:29:11] BitMEX_Arthur : agreed we want to give users the choice, and display that choice in an intuitive manner
[2015-03-31 23:29:31] KB : as long as you announce it far in advance, there shouldn't be a problem
[2015-03-31 23:29:45] KB : it's much harder to make changes like this when BitMEX takes off, if ever
[2015-03-31 23:30:43] KB : I think 1 fractional XBT contract = 1 XBT is a huge win for simplicity with no disadvantages
[2015-03-31 23:31:04] KB : the spreadsheets are fine now, btw
[2015-03-31 23:31:28] BitMEX_Arthur : great do you find them useful?
[2015-03-31 23:31:33] BitMEX_Arthur : anything you think should be added
[2015-03-31 23:31:45] KB : haven't used them much yet
[2015-03-31 23:31:59] KB : but you might want to add commands to explain each field
[2015-03-31 23:32:13] KB : it's not necessarily obvious what each field means
[2015-03-31 23:32:24] KB : *comments, not commands