This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2015-09-04 03:35:36] VanCleef : what if future price rises to 300, woul you be losing out?
[2015-09-04 03:39:07] j8 : for the `XBU` example you have no exposure, so your profit is the same regardless of the price
[2015-09-04 03:41:18] j8 : so perhaps you would have made more if you just bought BTC with your $10,000
[2015-09-04 03:42:01] VanCleef : right, but its good to have that hedge just in case
[2015-09-04 03:42:16] j8 : yeah, the point is you can capture the premium without making a bet on the price direction
[2015-09-04 03:43:56] VanCleef : awesome thanks j8
[2015-09-04 03:44:36] j8 : np
[2015-09-04 07:33:57] DunningKruger : Damn that lack of liquidity on XLT7D
[2015-09-04 07:55:27] vbmithr : Sam: here ?
[2015-09-04 07:55:40] BitMEX_Arthur : vbmithr: No not awake yet
[2015-09-04 07:57:40] vbmithr : :) ok
[2015-09-04 07:57:44] vbmithr : He's in america right ?
[2015-09-04 07:57:57] vbmithr : I guess.
[2015-09-04 07:58:13] BitMEX_Arthur : Yes
[2015-09-04 10:33:13] SnackyCoins : we settle in 90 minutes right?
[2015-09-04 11:33:02] TInvest : I need to move an order - will not aloow me to cancel
[2015-09-04 11:33:09] TInvest : any reason?'
[2015-09-04 11:34:37] TInvest : enever mind - refreshed browser
[2015-09-04 11:55:50] TInvest : ding ding - five mintes yes?
[2015-09-04 12:01:30] DunningKruger : kerching
[2015-09-04 12:03:08] TInvest : munnies is nice
[2015-09-04 12:03:16] TInvest : even fractions of oneyes
[2015-09-04 12:04:09] DunningKruger : Very nicely
[2015-09-04 12:50:53] SnackyCoins : it appears the Affiliate Total Turnover is increasing normally again, but none of the previous turnover was replaced
[2015-09-04 13:01:57] chromaticcr : thats a lot of volume at xbt7d
[2015-09-04 13:02:37] chromaticcr : ohhh... settlement...... overlooked...
[2015-09-04 13:20:53] vbmithr : Sam: I got BitMEX data working @ Sierra Chart
[2015-09-04 13:21:02] vbmithr : It needs more testing
[2015-09-04 13:21:13] vbmithr : If anybody wants to test it.
[2015-09-04 13:28:31] vbmithr : Would be great actually.
[2015-09-04 13:33:41] vbmithr : https://dtcprotocol.org/SupportBoard.php?ThreadID=16004
[2015-09-04 15:39:59] vbmithr : Sam: bug in the testnet api explorer
[2015-09-04 15:40:17] vbmithr : in order
[2015-09-04 15:40:18] vbmithr : POST
[2015-09-04 15:40:21] vbmithr : Order type. Available: 'limit', 'stopLimit'
[2015-09-04 15:40:41] vbmithr : The first letter should be capitalized.
[2015-09-04 16:04:41] cryptojoe : chromaticcr: doesn't that instrument automatically settle on fridays?
[2015-09-04 16:08:34] cryptojoe : stamp is finally trading about the 20 and 200MA on all charts periods 5m through 2h
[2015-09-04 16:17:29] cryptojoe : finex volume never recovered after it's debacle.
[2015-09-04 16:21:11] torokun : i'm used to okcoin
[2015-09-04 16:21:25] torokun : i'm used to ok coin
[2015-09-04 16:22:26] torokun : how do you sell part of a long position?
[2015-09-04 16:22:47] torokun : e.g., if you have 1000 contracts long and want to reduce it to 500
[2015-09-04 16:23:46] torokun : can you hold long and short positions simultaneously?
[2015-09-04 16:24:35] Juba : you simply make a sell order
[2015-09-04 16:24:51] Juba : it will take the amount you type in from your long
[2015-09-04 16:25:09] SnackyCoins : torokun you can't be long & short on the same contract, but you can long one contract and short another
[2015-09-04 16:25:14] Juba : test with 1 contract
[2015-09-04 16:25:24] torokun : so it's quite different to ok coin...
[2015-09-04 16:25:32] Juba : ye
[2015-09-04 16:26:02] SnackyCoins : inverse contracts (XBU) = okcoin contracts, but the leverage is lower on those
[2015-09-04 16:26:36] SnackyCoins : the controls are different here too, but P&L will behave like you're used to on the inverse contracts
[2015-09-04 16:27:26] torokun : i also think they should consolidate - too many offerings at the moment to get critical liquidity
[2015-09-04 16:28:39] torokun : watch this shit. everyone thinks we're consolidating and then some whales will tank the price to fuck everyone over.
[2015-09-04 16:28:43] SnackyCoins : the various settlement periods are vital to some trading strategies 8)
[2015-09-04 16:29:14] torokun : ^gently caress^screw
[2015-09-04 16:29:25] Juba : how would you explain the leverage on XBU/XBT
[2015-09-04 16:29:59] torokun : why is the leverage different?
[2015-09-04 16:30:04] Juba : ye
[2015-09-04 16:30:29] SnackyCoins : XBT is considered a speculative contract and offers leverage up to 25x, with "socialied losses" (but the number is shown ahead of time and not after settlement)
[2015-09-04 16:30:39] SnackyCoins : this is for people that want to play high leverage
[2015-09-04 16:30:46] SnackyCoins : but is bad for hedging your stack
[2015-09-04 16:31:00] SnackyCoins : so XBU offers lower leverage with no socialized losses
[2015-09-04 16:31:15] SnackyCoins : this way you can perfectly hedge
[2015-09-04 16:31:22] SnackyCoins : which is something futures are used for
[2015-09-04 16:31:29] Juba : ok nice snacky :)
[2015-09-04 16:31:30] SnackyCoins : you can't hedge properly on OKCoin
[2015-09-04 16:31:41] SnackyCoins : lol wordfilter
[2015-09-04 16:31:46] SnackyCoins : O K C oin
[2015-09-04 16:31:48] torokun : why? not enough range before liquidation?
[2015-09-04 16:32:04] torokun : you could do 10x
[2015-09-04 16:32:09] Juba : haha o k coin comes up as woodchipper?
[2015-09-04 16:32:09] SnackyCoins : you cant hedge properly in any socialized losses system because you dont know what the losses will be
[2015-09-04 16:32:16] SnackyCoins : ahead of time
[2015-09-04 16:32:17] torokun : well, that's true.
[2015-09-04 16:32:37] torokun : but there must be something similar here as well
[2015-09-04 16:32:49] SnackyCoins : if you wanted to buy btc and sell an equal dollar position on futures to hedge, you can't do it- you'll lose money if there's soc. losses
[2015-09-04 16:32:57] SnackyCoins : but you can here, on XBU
[2015-09-04 16:33:05] SnackyCoins : but as a result, leverage cant be as high
[2015-09-04 16:33:11] Juba : but I still dont get how the PL is calculated? its not real time on XBT My brain is used to okcoin
[2015-09-04 16:33:18] torokun : how does bitumen handle socialized losses?
[2015-09-04 16:33:32] SnackyCoins : bitumen?
[2015-09-04 16:33:40] torokun : bitmex
[2015-09-04 16:33:46] torokun : got corrected... :P
[2015-09-04 16:33:55] SnackyCoins : https://blog.bitmex.com/xbt-vs-xbu-chain/ this might be helpful
[2015-09-04 16:34:21] Juba : so xbu is like o k coin ?
[2015-09-04 16:34:43] SnackyCoins : bitmex socialized losses work like OKCoi n's, but here the loss % is displayed on the contract info when it happens- you don't have to wait until friday to see post-settlement
[2015-09-04 16:35:04] torokun : so you can withdraw at any time?
[2015-09-04 16:35:49] SnackyCoins : profits? some are locked away until settlement i believe. "advanced margin details" has a line called "unrealized profit"
[2015-09-04 16:36:30] torokun : hard to wrap my head around these xbt futures
[2015-09-04 16:36:36] torokun : after being used to okc
[2015-09-04 16:36:55] SnackyCoins : yeah it took me a while. Like i said, OKC uses inverse (XBU, but their leverage is higher)
[2015-09-04 16:37:05] vbmithr : OKCoin
[2015-09-04 16:37:06] vbmithr : :)
[2015-09-04 16:37:18] vbmithr : You can come to IRC if you don't want trollbox filtering thing
[2015-09-04 16:37:19] torokun : it also seems to replace profanity...
[2015-09-04 16:37:25] vbmithr : haha
[2015-09-04 16:37:28] torokun : shit
[2015-09-04 16:37:31] torokun : fuck
[2015-09-04 16:37:37] vbmithr : I can read it
[2015-09-04 16:37:38] SnackyCoins : Damnit Sam went all 4chan on us ;)
[2015-09-04 16:37:38] torokun : cunt
[2015-09-04 16:37:50] torokun : f u c k --> gently caress...
[2015-09-04 16:45:49] torokun : where is the settlement index/price?
[2015-09-04 16:50:19] torokun : cryptowat.ch only shows monthly xbt for bitmex
[2015-09-04 16:54:37] torokun : all settlements just use bitstamp price?
[2015-09-04 17:11:03] cryptojoe : torokun: if you click on 'contract specs' in the side bar, you can see which index is used for a given contract. i believe all the btc contracts use tradeblock (after switching over from bitfinex).
[2015-09-04 17:25:48] cryptojoe : BitMEX_Arthur: Are you guys hong kong based? I thought not, but the New Brave Coin article today says you are. http://bravenewcoin.com/news/despite-early-disappointments-vogogo-embraces-cryptocurrency-businesses-and-finds-success/
[2015-09-04 17:43:02] krtek.net : The company is registered on Seychelles. Servers are located in the west europe :) I see no HK link :)
[2015-09-04 17:44:07] krtek.net : Boys seems to be online mostly when there is a day in the US, but that's just a feeling.
[2015-09-04 17:54:49] cryptojoe : I heard Sam on a panel at the chicago inside btc conference. He sound Merican to me.
[2015-09-04 18:32:15] torokun : how does this leverage work? do i have to calculate how many contracts I can buy myself or does it display that somewhere?
[2015-09-04 18:34:47] torokun : and are there no market orders?
[2015-09-04 18:35:21] j8 : torokun: if you put in a quantity it will show Margin (Buy) and Margin (Sell) which is the minimum margin required
[2015-09-04 18:35:24] cryptojoe : torokun: idk. i never used the full 25x lev
[2015-09-04 18:36:01] torokun : so it just automatically uses leverage based on your positions.
[2015-09-04 18:36:12] torokun : instead of leveraging every position.
[2015-09-04 18:36:29] torokun : kind of weird to me...
[2015-09-04 18:36:36] j8 : once you have an order placed, you can click Isolate Margin which separates it
[2015-09-04 18:36:43] j8 : and uses max leverage
[2015-09-04 18:37:21] j8 : market orders aren't really available except for the Close Position button
[2015-09-04 18:37:30] torokun : dm
[2015-09-04 18:37:33] torokun : hmmm
[2015-09-04 18:37:43] j8 : just put a limit order deep into the book.
[2015-09-04 18:38:12] j8 : there is a little white bar under the button that estimates how much will fill immediately
[2015-09-04 18:39:39] torokun : when is unrealized PNL updated on positions?
[2015-09-04 18:40:02] Blargwaffle : 2h40m ago weekly.
[2015-09-04 18:40:21] torokun : no, i mean the displayed unrealized PNL
[2015-09-04 18:40:28] j8 : whenever the mark price changes
[2015-09-04 18:41:05] j8 : every 1 minute it seems.
[2015-09-04 19:16:12] BitMEX_Sam : Hey all, sorry the team has been quiet today, I'm usually around during the day US time but was traveling
[2015-09-04 19:17:00] BitMEX_Sam : torokun: Unrealised pnl is updated live as it happens. It's based on the mark price.
[2015-09-04 19:17:24] miratrader : BitMEX_Sam: Hi Sam, could you show dates in addition to times on the Recent Trades list?
[2015-09-04 19:17:29] BitMEX_Sam : No market orders is intentional, we consider them dangerous and only should be used in exceptional circumstances
[2015-09-04 19:17:45] BitMEX_Sam : miratrader: Try the fullscreen button at the top right of the recent trades list
[2015-09-04 19:18:18] BitMEX_Sam : The date is usually hidden just because it overflows on smaller screens
[2015-09-04 19:18:27] miratrader : BitMEX_Sam: oh cool, didn't notice the dates there
[2015-09-04 19:19:13] BitMEX_Sam : cryptojoe: krtek.net was mostly right. We are registered in the Seychelles, servers are in Europe. The HK link is because some partners live there. I'm usually in the US.
[2015-09-04 19:19:56] BitMEX_Sam : torokun: Re: withdrawals, you can withdraw realised profit at any time. XBU profit is realised as soon as you exit your position. All other contracts (which are subject to DPE/socialized loss) do not realize profit until the weekly rebalance which is at 12 UTC Friday.
[2015-09-04 19:20:19] BitMEX_Sam : vbmithr: Thanks for the doc note, will update.
[2015-09-04 19:22:07] BitMEX_Sam : Also, nice work re: DTC. Will try it out.
[2015-09-04 20:29:51] cowtung : somebody buy my 10 measly contracts pls
[2015-09-04 20:37:11] cowtung : thank you
[2015-09-04 20:37:15] j8 : your welcome
[2015-09-04 20:39:30] vbmithr : Sam: thanks
[2015-09-04 20:40:08] vbmithr : Yeah, have a look at the DTC daemon. You can report bugs on the DTC forum thread I mentionned
[2015-09-04 20:40:33] vbmithr : Next week I'll implement the trading functionality.
[2015-09-04 21:17:25] krtek.net : You should either release the code to public or insist the BitMEX implements some kind of a privilege separation for API (if the requests are to be router through your server)
[2015-09-04 21:17:58] krtek.net : You surely don't want to be blamed for stolen coins, do you? :)
[2015-09-04 21:18:30] krtek.net : It's fine on testnet, but no-go on the real network.
[2015-09-04 21:25:59] vbmithr : I can just trade with the api keys
[2015-09-04 21:26:08] vbmithr : not withdraw
[2015-09-04 21:26:19] vbmithr : the wallet is at bitmex
[2015-09-04 21:27:06] vbmithr : releasing the code wouldn't change a thing :)
[2015-09-04 21:33:06] alan_fuji : site won’t load, is it just me?
[2015-09-04 21:39:18] krtek.net : vmmithr:the api key you it for trading is capable of doing withdrawal
[2015-09-04 21:41:03] cowtung : site dead for me too
[2015-09-04 21:41:31] cryptosys : ok here
[2015-09-04 21:45:16] alan_fuji : seems to be IP related
[2015-09-04 21:56:28] krtek.net : The US & A is messing with the national firewall hard lately...
[2015-09-04 22:03:40] vbmithr : krtek: then indeed bitmex should implement a privilege separation for the API
[2015-09-04 22:03:46] vbmithr : as it is the case on most exchanges :)
[2015-09-04 22:33:03] j8 : BitMEX_Sam: i have a few orders in my order history that say 'Canceled via API', but that can't be right
[2015-09-04 22:41:40] j8 : disabled my api key a while ago just in case but they're still showing up
[2015-09-05 00:28:57] krtek.net : Sam: https://github.com/BitMEX/market-maker/pull/1
[2015-09-05 01:09:17] BitMEX_Sam : vbmithr: API Key constraints are on my shortlist, the basic parts of it are in place but it needs more work
[2015-09-05 01:09:31] BitMEX_Sam : I agree that would be very useful. Once API Key controls make it to the frontend, constraints will be part of it
[2015-09-05 01:10:01] BitMEX_Sam : j8: `'Canceled via API'` is the standard message used when no message is sent. The frontend sends its own message.
[2015-09-05 01:12:03] BitMEX_Sam : Note however that while an API Key is capable of withdrawal, it still requires an email confirmation
[2015-09-05 01:12:13] krtek.net : ok
[2015-09-05 01:12:14] BitMEX_Sam : Once we work constraints into the system that will no longer be true.
[2015-09-05 01:12:26] BitMEX_Sam : Thanks for the PR btw krtek.net
[2015-09-05 01:13:36] BitMEX_Sam : By default, once the system is done, API keys will have a default set of permissions that are restricted. You will need to specifically give them withdrawal access and there will still be an email notification, but not a required action.
[2015-09-05 01:13:42] krtek.net : first line, oh yeees :)
[2015-09-05 01:14:41] miratrader : BitMEX_Sam: Please consider using a trusted address (or a list of addresses) for API withdrawals without email confirmation. We usually like to automate withdrawals to keep min trading capital on the exchange
[2015-09-05 01:15:50] krtek.net : if you mean IP addresses, this will be possible with the permissions implemented
[2015-09-05 01:16:01] krtek.net : you just create another key just for withdrawal
[2015-09-05 01:16:19] krtek.net : keys can be restricted to ip(s) already
[2015-09-05 01:16:37] krtek.net : oh
[2015-09-05 01:16:40] krtek.net : sorr
[2015-09-05 01:16:42] krtek.net : sorry
[2015-09-05 01:16:44] miratrader : no, I mean trusted bitcoin addresses that don't require manual withdrawal confirmation
[2015-09-05 01:17:06] krtek.net : I've spoken before I finished readying )
[2015-09-05 01:17:48] miratrader : 2FA confirmation to add a trusted bitcoin address, then withdraw to this address using API without manual confirmaiton
[2015-09-05 01:19:11] BitMEX_Sam : miratrader: That's a good idea and something that could be worked into the constraints system. So e.g. withdrawals can be automated, but only to this array of addresses.
[2015-09-05 01:19:36] BitMEX_Sam : In general any API key update will require 2FA, we won't allow updating API keys with other API keys
[2015-09-05 01:20:34] BitMEX_Sam : I'll be in and out tonight but if you all have any other ideas please feel free to leave them here. So far you all have had some great suggestions.
[2015-09-05 01:21:29] krtek.net : consider dual 2FA.... one master for changing everthing even keys and such and secondary only usable for website login
[2015-09-05 01:21:53] BitMEX_Sam : That's interesting.
[2015-09-05 01:21:56] krtek.net : MIM with SSL os a bitch
[2015-09-05 01:22:31] krtek.net : is
[2015-09-05 01:22:39] BitMEX_Sam : I've been wanting to add yubikey, pgp challenge/response, and bitcoin address challenge/response too. Someday soon I hope.
[2015-09-05 01:23:02] BitMEX_Sam : That could be an interesting constraint. Not sure if it's necessary. But you could require a signed message to add a no-confirmation withdrawal address.
[2015-09-05 01:23:05] krtek.net : neat...
[2015-09-05 01:23:38] krtek.net : you see where I'm pointing, logging into a website is completelly dirffernt clearence level than manipulating the keys
[2015-09-05 01:23:47] krtek.net : these should be difreret
[2015-09-05 01:23:53] BitMEX_Sam : But I'm not sure if that signed message actually accomplished anything. It proves that you own the address, but it doesn't prove that you own the account
[2015-09-05 01:23:55] BitMEX_Sam : True
[2015-09-05 01:24:13] BitMEX_Sam : At the very least modifying any API keys will require another 2FA auth, much like withdrawal
[2015-09-05 01:24:29] BitMEX_Sam : I know that's not the case now but it will be.
[2015-09-05 01:24:52] BitMEX_Sam : Anyway I have to run. Thanks for the great ideas
[2015-09-05 01:25:07] krtek.net : see ya
[2015-09-05 01:33:08] j8 : BitMEX_Sam: i think the X button in the gui for cancel all buys / cancel all sells causes the 'Canceled by API' status
[2015-09-05 06:42:38] vbmithr : Well for me, I just _need_ privilege separation in order for my service to be usable (as krtek said). But since it's going to be live soon…
[2015-09-05 06:48:02] krtek.net : withdrawals still need e-mail confirmation, so I think you can go live, but you definitely need to warn your users about this issue.
[2015-09-05 07:26:18] vbmithr : :) ok!
[2015-09-05 07:50:50] jleon : for XBU, how do i short for example 330, and set stop loss 336?
[2015-09-05 07:51:11] jleon : i mean short 230, then stop loss 236
[2015-09-05 07:51:59] jleon : do i sell/short 230 limit, then go to stop limit buy/long 236 ?
[2015-09-05 07:52:23] BitMEX_Arthur : After you short / sell XBU contracts
[2015-09-05 07:53:17] BitMEX_Arthur : then create a Stop Limit Buy, with a stop price of 236 and a limit price slightly higher so that it gets filled
[2015-09-05 07:54:44] jleon : ok, i shall try it. Thanks Arthur
[2015-09-05 07:56:20] BitMEX_Arthur : jleon: To get more liquidity I suggest trading the XBT style futures
[2015-09-05 07:57:01] jleon : im abit confuse, do they work the same?
[2015-09-05 07:57:26] jleon : for XBU, one contract = 100USD worth of bitcoin right?
[2015-09-05 07:57:31] BitMEX_Arthur : correct
[2015-09-05 07:57:37] BitMEX_Arthur : That is better for hedging
[2015-09-05 07:57:43] BitMEX_Arthur : If you are speculating use the XBT series
[2015-09-05 07:57:46] jleon : so to hedge for example 1 bitcoin, i need to buy 2.3 contract, (2 rounded)
[2015-09-05 07:57:52] BitMEX_Arthur : Correct
[2015-09-05 07:58:24] jleon : oh ok, i just want to protect my bitcoin value at usd230 :)
[2015-09-05 07:58:25] BitMEX_Arthur : If you are long physical BTC, you need to sell XBU contracts
[2015-09-05 07:58:28] BitMEX_Arthur : ok
[2015-09-05 07:58:36] BitMEX_Arthur : yes XBU series is perfect for you
[2015-09-05 07:59:08] jleon : for XBT, i actually see that I can short, and set stop limit too
[2015-09-05 07:59:14] BitMEX_Arthur : Yes you can
[2015-09-05 07:59:26] jleon : it would be able to use as hedge as well?
[2015-09-05 08:00:01] BitMEX_Arthur : It is not a perfect hedge due to the payoff structure. I suggest using XBU
[2015-09-05 08:00:52] BitMEX_Arthur : `XBUU15`
[2015-09-05 08:00:57] jleon : ok, i shall need to read more about XBT oayoff structure
[2015-09-05 08:01:20] BitMEX_Arthur : https://blog.bitmex.com/xbt-vs-xbu-chain/
[2015-09-05 08:01:22] BitMEX_Arthur : Read this
[2015-09-05 08:01:38] jleon : thanks for the link, appreciate that
[2015-09-05 10:16:29] krtek.net : Just to be precise, you can place your stop/loss order before you placing your opening order and I consider it safer.
[2015-09-05 10:17:12] krtek.net : if the market sudenly moves after your open is filled and before the stop/loss is places, you could go bankcrupt.
[2015-09-05 10:18:20] krtek.net : and this move needn't to be sudden, if you just forgot to watch your open order to get filled ect. or even forget to place stop/loss after it is filled.
[2015-09-05 10:21:26] krtek.net : Request for order flag: "chained order" is placed in the book at the same time as the next order is placed the book.
[2015-09-05 10:22:23] krtek.net : grrr... no
[2015-09-05 10:33:00] krtek.net : another order state: prepared three new flags: - "chaining" flag: the order starts as prepared and is places in the book when the equivalent opposite "chained" order is placed (even parts) - "chained" flag starts as prepared and is placed in the book as at the same time the "chaining" order gets filled (even parts) - multiple chained orders are possible, and are always chained to the closest previous chaining order, they all of them are placed in the book at the same time. - if any of the chained order gets filled (even parts), all other chained orders are canceled.
[2015-09-05 10:33:42] krtek.net : this way you can implement stop/loss, take/profit and oco at the same time
[2015-09-05 12:21:51] joequant : I'm in the process of putting together a trading system that will let you do stuff like that client side.
[2015-09-05 12:21:59] joequant : see algobroker in pypi
[2015-09-05 12:22:58] joequant : for anything that involves complex order transactions, i'd rather roll my own orders since I can do backtesting.
[2015-09-05 12:24:37] joequant : I'm finding that I'm in situations where (if event X happens then wait for order Y). Also, I'm finding that I want to trigger orders based on outside events.
[2015-09-05 12:25:14] joequant : i.e. just now the chinese exchanges moved, and I'd like to put in hedging orders in bitmex
[2015-09-05 13:26:22] krtek.net : client side trigger is too slow for HFT
[2015-09-05 14:19:53] joequant : yup, but I've found that with bitcoin trading you can get by with two second latencies
[2015-09-05 14:20:44] joequant : At least in my case, I've found that operational risk is a bigger problem than speed (i.e. having a strategy backfire)
[2015-09-05 14:32:04] DunningKruger : If the Chinese exchanges moved, it could be anything from a whale to a butterfly...
[2015-09-05 14:36:42] gustavo7 : 1500 cny rejected?
[2015-09-05 15:50:45] DunningKruger : For now, yeah.
[2015-09-05 15:56:34] joequant : The weird thing is that you have a situation in which all the futures are below spot. Shanghai A50 is 10% below spot, and so are the Chinese bitcoin futures.
[2015-09-05 15:56:45] joequant : Actually it's 2%
[2015-09-05 15:56:50] joequant : But it's still weird.
[2015-09-05 16:38:15] j8 : quarterlies on okc just went to a premium, moments after you spoke, we'll see if it lasts
[2015-09-05 16:42:38] krtek.net : aaand we are back in contango.
[2015-09-05 16:50:03] krtek.net : holy moly :D
[2015-09-05 16:51:30] krtek.net : that was the most crazy trasfer to the negative basis I've seen...
[2015-09-05 16:51:56] j8 : yeah things are heating up...
[2015-09-05 16:54:39] chromaticcr : @j8 my take on the okc premium is that it will go back to a reasonable rate after this week's settlement, new quarter contract is coming up....
[2015-09-05 16:55:29] krtek.net : the is the settlement anyway?
[2015-09-05 16:55:31] krtek.net : when
[2015-09-05 16:55:52] chromaticcr : okc fut is a bit too irrational to trade on, and the irrationality can't be fixed by the arb-er, arbing could burn in big move
[2015-09-05 16:56:01] chromaticcr : Friday 1600 GMT+8
[2015-09-05 16:57:22] krtek.net : on okc?
[2015-09-05 16:57:42] chromaticcr : yup
[2015-09-05 16:57:47] krtek.net : hmm
[2015-09-05 16:59:11] krtek.net : the whole okc exchange behaves "unusual"... futures prices driving the spot? that just means there is something wrong with the liquidity on the spot market no?
[2015-09-05 16:59:18] chromaticcr : the quarter will shift to biweek, therefore a new contract is introduced to fill the quarter. This is how it works
[2015-09-05 16:59:37] chromaticcr : Well Star Xu is behind the numbers
[2015-09-05 16:59:43] chromaticcr : what do you expect
[2015-09-05 16:59:59] j8 : why shouldn't futures drive spot.
[2015-09-05 17:00:25] j8 : if that's where the biggest bets are being made
[2015-09-05 17:01:10] chromaticcr : It do drive spot. Either big bets, big cascading orders or low volume with a big price change (which followed by cascading orders...)
[2015-09-05 17:01:25] chromaticcr : Easy to manipulate
[2015-09-05 17:01:33] krtek.net : no matter what the bets are, the price should always be driven by the real economy, if it's not, it is not a market, it's a gamble
[2015-09-05 17:02:42] chromaticcr : "OKCasino"... we all have heard of that nickname
[2015-09-05 17:04:03] j8 : sure, take the wick to 240.96 on quarterlies for example
[2015-09-05 17:04:59] krtek.net : spike on spot was whoe 2 minutes later.
[2015-09-05 17:14:03] j8 : i'd say its part of the economy. spot + margin can do the same thing, re:bitfinex
[2015-09-05 17:17:18] j8 : just happens on a longer timeframe / bigger move
[2015-09-05 17:46:14] joequant : the problem with okcoin quarterly contracts is that they have clawbacks.
[2015-09-05 17:46:27] joequant : So you have to factor in counterparty risk.
[2015-09-05 17:46:37] joequant : okcoin
[2015-09-05 18:05:07] j8 : yeah, i guess all our markets suffer from that in one form or another. if the exchange takes the risk, then you take the risk of the exchange defaulting.
[2015-09-05 18:25:01] krtek.net : finally?
[2015-09-05 18:25:26] krtek.net : ah, false alarm
[2015-09-05 19:36:32] vbmithr : hi
[2015-09-05 19:36:33] vbmithr : http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets
[2015-09-05 19:36:50] vbmithr : Anybody knows why coinmarket caps lists chinese exchange differently ?
[2015-09-05 19:37:27] j8 : vbmithr: can't really compare volume with zero fee markets
[2015-09-05 19:59:37] vbmithr : ah
[2015-09-05 19:59:41] vbmithr : transaction cost = 0 really ?
[2015-09-05 19:59:46] vbmithr : how do they make money ?
[2015-09-05 20:00:57] vbmithr : what's the point in having a zero fee market btw ?
[2015-09-05 20:01:02] vbmithr : (olts of questions…)
[2015-09-05 20:08:17] j8 : good question, a lot of people are suspicious about that.
[2015-09-05 20:09:03] j8 : there are fees on fiat deposits / withdrawals
[2015-09-05 20:09:32] j8 : okc has fees on futures
[2015-09-05 20:09:54] j8 : they charge for colocation service also.
[2015-09-05 20:11:13] j8 : it seems the chinese business model is to take market share at any cost
[2015-09-05 20:17:02] j8 : a lot of people figure they must be trading against you. "if they're not selling a product, then you are the product"
[2015-09-05 21:01:43] vbmithr : interesting
[2015-09-05 21:03:03] vbmithr : I have no idea
[2015-09-05 21:03:20] vbmithr : the other question I had, totally unrelated, for people who know whaleclub
[2015-09-05 21:03:34] vbmithr : in the signal tab, how people broadcast signals ? is it done automatically ?
[2015-09-05 22:05:10] SnackyCoins : i think so vb, once you're enrolled it pulls from your tradingview (not 100% sure i dont use it myself)
[2015-09-05 23:53:56] joequant : oh that's easy
[2015-09-05 23:54:13] joequant : the chinese exchanges make money from margin loans.
[2015-09-05 23:54:34] joequant : I also suspect that they get interest from fiat holdings.
[2015-09-05 23:57:06] joequant : Also you need to go through a broker in order to move fiat onto the exchange, and it's likely that the exchange gets a cut of that.
[2015-09-05 23:57:27] joequant : The Chinese exchanges do have pretty high transaction fees on USD trades.
[2015-09-06 02:23:29] krtek.net : `OKC:BTCUSD3M` in contago again. For how long this time?
[2015-09-06 02:25:29] jleon : after i short XBU, in stop limit, i set buy stop, and the order pop up in stops tab below but not shown in XBU orderbook. is that normal?
[2015-09-06 02:26:25] krtek.net : yes, otherwise it would get filled rightaway, won't it?
[2015-09-06 02:34:11] krtek.net : blast-off
[2015-09-06 02:38:17] jleon : so it will only put in order book when last order is hitting my stop price?
[2015-09-06 02:38:53] jleon : ok, got it :) thanks
[2015-09-06 02:44:29] BitMEX_Arthur : Are we going to break out above $240 here?
[2015-09-06 02:49:29] zanza : are there 1 confirmation deposits now?
[2015-09-06 02:49:39] BitMEX_Arthur : Yes it has always been that way
[2015-09-06 02:49:48] zanza : oh, thought it was 3
[2015-09-06 02:49:50] zanza : oops
[2015-09-06 02:56:05] j8 : i'm thinking it's a bit soon to break $240
[2015-09-06 02:56:21] BitMEX_Arthur : Yeah we might enter a $235-$240 range for a few days
[2015-09-06 03:07:39] j8 : but what do i know
[2015-09-06 03:09:19] j8 : its fomo o'clock
[2015-09-06 03:20:45] BitMEX_Arthur : See that 248 wick on finex
[2015-09-06 03:20:54] BitMEX_Arthur : SHORT SQUEEEEEZZEEE
[2015-09-06 03:47:54] krtek.net : we are still in backwardation after this?
[2015-09-06 03:48:11] BitMEX_Arthur : On what future?
[2015-09-06 03:48:29] krtek.net : all okc :)
[2015-09-06 03:48:49] BitMEX_Arthur : Sounds like an arb to me :)
[2015-09-06 03:48:50] krtek.net : also XBT7D
[2015-09-06 03:49:04] krtek.net : not by much
[2015-09-06 03:56:43] j8 : been seeing 2wk < 1 wk < 3 wk a lot over there
[2015-09-06 03:57:16] j8 : which is a little mysterious to me
[2015-09-06 03:57:47] j8 : quarterly being 3wks now
[2015-09-06 04:01:29] krtek.net : /me nods
[2015-09-06 04:02:53] BitMEX_Arthur : probably liquididty premium
[2015-09-06 04:04:32] j8 : that doesn't make sense to me - they're all under spot and 2wk has the least liquidity.
[2015-09-06 04:05:04] j8 : so it would seem the liquidity to short is in demand
[2015-09-06 04:05:12] BitMEX_Arthur : so in a fomo rally most people trade the 1wk
[2015-09-06 04:05:25] BitMEX_Arthur : and 3wk is higher than 1wk as you get more time value
[2015-09-06 04:22:19] j8 : yeah i'm convinced, was a little backward in my head. actually i can convince myself either way now that i think about it
[2015-09-06 04:26:02] VanCleef : one hell of a short squeeze
[2015-09-06 05:01:03] priceaction : 243/244 looks like a good point to sell, don't you think?
[2015-09-06 05:06:40] j8 : i'd rather sell here with a stop around 244/245/246
[2015-09-06 05:07:32] priceaction : makes sense, thx
[2015-09-06 05:07:45] priceaction : so what's up with ltc - doom was a sure thing and now another pump?
[2015-09-06 05:31:58] joequant : Something weird happening in china. all futures below spot.
[2015-09-06 05:32:09] joequant : shanghai a50 is 10% below spot
[2015-09-06 05:32:42] priceaction : some ppl seem to know something :)
[2015-09-06 05:33:13] joequant : everyone knows something
[2015-09-06 05:33:31] joequant : I suspect it has something to do with the government freezing large stock sales
[2015-09-06 05:33:37] joequant : and people trying to get around the rule.
[2015-09-06 05:34:13] joequant : the hard part is making money from it.
[2015-09-06 05:38:34] joequant : could be currency views, i.e. people pricing in a 2 percent drop in the RMB.
[2015-09-06 05:40:07] joequant : But that pattern you see in XBT is in all futures with something to do with China. The market seems to be pricing in another crash in the next two weeks, followed by some stability.
[2015-09-06 05:42:04] joequant : other possibility is that Chinese government is pumping in liquidity to the SOE's and it's leading into spot.
[2015-09-06 05:42:28] priceaction : strange i have heard ppl putting money back into the stock market
[2015-09-06 05:43:03] priceaction : in china - as they can't lose atm
[2015-09-06 05:45:10] priceaction : today is also the first day after the holidays
[2015-09-06 05:49:29] j8 : joequant: interesting perspective
[2015-09-06 05:50:20] joequant : I have a straddle on the HK markets. I know it's going to jump in one direction, I don't know which.
[2015-09-06 05:52:14] joequant : I really dread monday mornings. On other days, you can guess how the market is going to behave on open based on US markets and futures.
[2015-09-06 05:52:26] joequant : Monday market, you end up with surprises.
[2015-09-06 05:52:31] joequant : usually unpleasant ones.
[2015-09-06 05:54:06] priceaction : well usd is at its height compared to gold, silver, oil, bitcoin, rubel, euro - time for reverse
[2015-09-06 05:56:23] priceaction : maybe that's the prob if the usd devalues the cny will try to devalue as well and we'll have an interesting race with lots of collisions
[2015-09-06 05:57:02] joequant : I don't think you will see more cny devaulations. Any more cny devaluation, US imposes tariffs making the devaluation useless.
[2015-09-06 05:57:21] joequant : But the CNYUSD thing is causing hell for bitcoin pricing.
[2015-09-06 05:57:36] joequant : The problem is that there are several ways of calculating the CNYUSD exchange rate.
[2015-09-06 05:57:49] joequant : So all the Chinese exchanges have different reference prices.
[2015-09-06 05:58:03] joequant : Now that the CNY is volatile
[2015-09-06 05:58:09] joequant : the problem is going to get worse.
[2015-09-06 05:59:28] priceaction : good - lets fllood fiat into crypto
[2015-09-06 06:04:25] joequant : It might be happening now.
[2015-09-06 06:18:18] billyboy402 : if you buy $100 worth of BTC @ $240 then short $100 (1 contract) XBTmarch 2016) that is current @$300 ... you should be making $60 right , why is the 6 months index price soo far over current
[2015-09-06 06:22:36] joequant : Because the payoff is non-linear.
[2015-09-06 06:22:56] joequant : With XBT you make more coin if the price is high than if it is low
[2015-09-06 06:23:09] joequant : And this biases things toward higher prices.
[2015-09-06 06:23:21] joequant : It doesn't happen with XBU.
[2015-09-06 06:23:51] joequant : Basically the price of XBT is driven by voliatility which is high right now.
[2015-09-06 06:25:25] joequant : https://bitquant.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/magic-formula-for-xbt-and-xbu-futures/
[2015-09-06 06:25:32] joequant : no warranties.
[2015-09-06 06:25:47] joequant : I haven't had to to check that formula against data.
[2015-09-06 06:26:54] billyboy402 : so xbt is not a future ?
[2015-09-06 06:27:02] joequant : yes it is a future
[2015-09-06 06:27:08] billyboy402 : i thought it a future like okcoin
[2015-09-06 06:27:19] billyboy402 : so if you short the 6 months at $
[2015-09-06 06:27:37] joequant : But the payoff has a weird characteristic.
[2015-09-06 06:27:46] joequant : You are getting the money back in XBT and not dollars
[2015-09-06 06:28:02] joequant : So if the price of bitcoin goes up, you get paid in bitcoin that is now worth more.
[2015-09-06 06:28:09] billyboy402 : $300 ... and wait 6 months ,,,, if it expair at $200 , you make $100 .... if it close at $300 you break even ... if close at $400 you lose $100 Right ?
[2015-09-06 06:28:22] joequant : So if you plot the payoff.
[2015-09-06 06:28:34] joequant : You make more money if the bitcoin is high.
[2015-09-06 06:28:45] joequant : Because you are getting paid in bitcoin and not dollars.
[2015-09-06 06:28:54] joequant : This doesn't happen with XBU.
[2015-09-06 06:29:25] cengel : joequant, but why doesnt XBU trade at a discount then?
[2015-09-06 06:29:39] joequant : It does compared to XBT.
[2015-09-06 06:29:45] billyboy402 : yea i understand that , so if you rate 1 BTC .... @ $300 . that will be 3 contracts , if you short it . and it exapir at $$300 , you get back what you started
[2015-09-06 06:29:49] cengel : but not to spot
[2015-09-06 06:30:06] joequant : XBU has a flat payoff
[2015-09-06 06:30:18] cengel : its more profitable in bitcoin terms to short than long with it
[2015-09-06 06:30:28] joequant : So if you want standard options formula, you use XBU.
[2015-09-06 06:30:35] cengel : or, dollar terms
[2015-09-06 06:30:51] joequant : the woodchipper options are odd because you have cmp risk for long options.
[2015-09-06 06:31:03] billyboy402 : why use XBU for $ ammount , it still the same thing
[2015-09-06 06:32:03] j8 : https://blog.bitmex.com/xbt-vs-xbu-chain/
[2015-09-06 06:32:16] j8 : (this gets posted here like twice a day)
[2015-09-06 06:32:24] billyboy402 : sooo , if it goes to $150 ,,, you now get 2 BTC ,,,, if it does to $450 .... you know lose half and only get 0.5BTC .... that if you trade 3 contracts .....
[2015-09-06 06:32:56] joequant : XBU is designed so that your dollar payout is linear.
[2015-09-06 06:33:12] billyboy402 : so why is the 6 month index is soo over the spot price
[2015-09-06 06:33:28] billyboy402 : joequant: are you a admin ?
[2015-09-06 06:33:31] j8 : the index is set to follow the market
[2015-09-06 06:33:37] joequant : no.
[2015-09-06 06:33:41] joequant : just a quant
[2015-09-06 06:33:46] joequant : and a trader
[2015-09-06 06:33:55] joequant : my opinions are my own.
[2015-09-06 06:36:10] joequant : XBT pays out linear in XBT
[2015-09-06 06:36:43] j8 : billyboy402: if i bet you 1 bitcoin that the price will go to 400 before it goes to 100, its a good bet for me because the bet is worth more if it goes to 400
[2015-09-06 06:36:50] joequant : So if you buy XBT at 100 USD, at 200 USD, you might make 1 XBT, at 300 USD you might make 2 XBT, at 400 USD you might make 3 XBT
[2015-09-06 06:37:29] joequant : But if the price goes to 400, those XBT are each 400 whereas if the price goes to 300, the 2 XBT is worth 300
[2015-09-06 06:38:10] joequant : So XBT is biased upward.
[2015-09-06 06:41:24] joequant : maybe I ought to do a youtube video :-) I need a whiteboard. :-)
[2015-09-06 06:43:15] billyboy402 : yes i understand that , but should time be more , they should be closer to the index
[2015-09-06 06:44:56] joequant : Let's say that there is a 50% chance that the market will go up 10% or down 10%
[2015-09-06 06:45:30] joequant : In the XBU the money you make from the market going up exactly cancels the amount going down.
[2015-09-06 06:45:51] joequant : In XBT it's biased so that +10% doesn't cancel -10%
[2015-09-06 06:46:00] joequant : Now as you go to further time
[2015-09-06 06:46:12] joequant : it's more likely that the market will move a large amount.
[2015-09-06 06:46:21] joequant : And so the bias increases.
[2015-09-06 06:46:37] joequant : It's not likely that the market will move up or down +30% in one day
[2015-09-06 06:46:46] joequant : probably not in a week.
[2015-09-06 06:47:00] joequant : one month, maybe. six month high chance that it will move that much
[2015-09-06 06:47:29] billyboy402 : you could make a profit , if you buy $10,000 BTC at $250 ( 40 BTC) but short 100 contracts at $300 ... just have to wait 6 months , if expire at $250 , your BTC is worth $10,000 but your 100 contracts will be worth 6.66 BTC or 6.66 btc @ $250 = $1,600...... if it fall or rise , what ever you make on BTC you will lose on the contracts , vis verse
[2015-09-06 06:49:29] joequant : your contracts would be work 6.66 BTC at whatever the price of BTC is when it expires.
[2015-09-06 06:49:33] joequant : worth
[2015-09-06 06:49:45] j8 : read the blog post - it goes through exactly that example for both `XBU` and `XBT`
[2015-09-06 06:50:50] j8 : for XBU yes, your net exposure is zero and you capture the premium regardless
[2015-09-06 06:51:04] j8 : for XBT, it's profitable if it settles within a certain range
[2015-09-06 06:57:03] joequant : there is a scenario in which the XBT arb can break.
[2015-09-06 06:57:36] joequant : you short XBT go long spot. the voliatility goes up, the spread increases and you hit a margin call.
[2015-09-06 06:57:45] joequant : this can't happen with XBU.
[2015-09-06 07:00:52] j8 : thats true, and this exchange is not set up for properly arbing across contracts unfortunately - your profits on `XBT` won't be used as margin for `XBU` and vice versa, until weekly rebalance
[2015-09-06 07:09:53] j8 : joequant: i've played around with your magic formula a bit. looks like `H15` is a bit high compared to the others, and they're all a bit low compared to the 30 day realized volatility
[2015-09-06 07:12:44] j8 : although i'm not sure what a reasonable price for `XBUH15` would be
[2015-09-06 07:43:36] vbmithr : joequant: reading your blogpost about algo trading
[2015-09-06 07:57:35] vbmithr : really interesting
[2015-09-06 07:59:01] vbmithr : joequant: have you heard of Sierra Chart ?
[2015-09-06 08:15:24] joequant : yes, but I avoid non open source and monolithic systems.
[2015-09-06 08:18:46] billyboy402 : joequant: can you have a look at this , this is mostly correct right ? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x_X1zQDOgZaaOdzkq1DZq32zZjxyRPBbLNZoAwnFZz0/edit?usp=sharing
[2015-09-06 08:20:38] lolcookie : you do end up with less coin though
[2015-09-06 08:20:43] BitMEX_Arthur : You need to look at the formula for futures
[2015-09-06 08:21:02] BitMEX_Arthur : Bitcoin PNL = (1/P1 - 1/P0) * -100 * Contracts
[2015-09-06 08:21:06] vbmithr : joequant: I see :)
[2015-09-06 08:21:24] lolcookie : when the future price is lower you can lock in a BTC profit
[2015-09-06 08:21:30] BitMEX_Arthur : You should make $100 (the difference between spot and futures) * contracts regardless of the price
[2015-09-06 08:21:33] billyboy402 : yea , so really ifyou where doing that , u want the price to increase
[2015-09-06 08:21:36] lolcookie : potentially
[2015-09-06 08:21:47] lolcookie : but since you are split 50/50
[2015-09-06 08:21:49] BitMEX_Arthur : Think in USD terms it doesn't matter where the price goes, you locked in a USD profit
[2015-09-06 08:23:16] lolcookie : coin stays the same you lose profit
[2015-09-06 08:23:17] billyboy402 : Arthur , would would be the different if i trade xbt or xbu ,. is it te same byt 25x or 5x ?
[2015-09-06 08:23:31] BitMEX_Arthur : Forget the leverage for now
[2015-09-06 08:23:45] BitMEX_Arthur : XBU allows you to lock in a USD value
[2015-09-06 08:24:08] BitMEX_Arthur : so if the difference between XBU and spot is $10 and you buy spot and sell XBU, you are guaranteed to make $10 * Number of Contracts
[2015-09-06 08:24:22] BitMEX_Arthur : regardless of where spot is on settlement day
[2015-09-06 08:24:32] billyboy402 : are you on teamspeak , some time it easy to traver knowage in words and not text
[2015-09-06 08:25:05] BitMEX_Arthur : I am in mainland china at the moment, the internet sucks so I generally stay off teamspeak
[2015-09-06 08:25:15] billyboy402 : ok , so the xbu is what i want to trade then , to make the different in spread from future price and spot price
[2015-09-06 08:25:21] BitMEX_Arthur : yes and no
[2015-09-06 08:25:27] BitMEX_Arthur : right now there is very little premium
[2015-09-06 08:25:33] BitMEX_Arthur : vs. XBT with a large premium
[2015-09-06 08:25:45] BitMEX_Arthur : if you are ok to take some risk, selling XBT and buying spot can be profitable
[2015-09-06 08:26:44] lolcookie : man I have locked my ass into a corner
[2015-09-06 08:27:01] billyboy402 : on the xbu there $4 different
[2015-09-06 08:27:21] billyboy402 : bbl 10 min
[2015-09-06 08:29:13] BitMEX_Arthur : lolcookie: What did you do?
[2015-09-06 08:29:35] lolcookie : traded XBZ15
[2015-09-06 08:29:56] lolcookie : XBUZ15
[2015-09-06 08:30:51] lolcookie : I couldnt exit my position when the market went against me and ive been taking counter positions for the past few days trying to stay in the black
[2015-09-06 08:31:18] BitMEX_Arthur : lolcookie: Maybe you should post some quotes in the market to see if anyone will trade against you
[2015-09-06 08:31:52] lolcookie : no volume ive been trying
[2015-09-06 08:32:16] j8 : `XBU` is a ghost town on the weekends when the one big MM isn't active
[2015-09-06 08:32:27] lolcookie : a bot will always beat me by 0.01 and steal what ever liquidity there is
[2015-09-06 08:33:12] j8 : you might be able to lure the bot to a good price by posting on the wrong side
[2015-09-06 08:33:27] lolcookie : maybe ill try
[2015-09-06 08:33:35] lolcookie : bot wont go below spot though
[2015-09-06 08:33:42] j8 : well no.
[2015-09-06 08:34:38] billyboy402 : arthur , so on the google doc , i would still make a those profits if those out come come out ,
[2015-09-06 08:35:00] billyboy402 : i dont understand wy ur 6 month xbt is $300 and not 240
[2015-09-06 08:35:25] billyboy402 : on okcoin future , when ever the price is over , i always short it
[2015-09-06 08:35:44] j8 : why don't you read this blog post :) https://blog.bitmex.com/xbt-vs-xbu-chain/
[2015-09-06 08:36:09] BitMEX_Arthur : https://blog.bitmex.com/bitmex-hosts-bitcoin-arbitrage-webinar/
[2015-09-06 08:36:14] BitMEX_Arthur : you can also watch this webinar
[2015-09-06 08:36:18] BitMEX_Arthur : maybe i need to do another one
[2015-09-06 08:39:59] billyboy402 : i think is shit that when i type ok ccoin it come up as the woodchiper
[2015-09-06 08:40:03] billyboy402 : okcoin