This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2016-08-16 17:33:57] REKT : Liquidated short on `XBTUSD`: Buy 3500 @ 577.73
[2016-08-16 17:45:06] lockhedge : sleger was long when XBTUSD was trading 1-2% above spot and BitMEX had to introduce the premium index to avoid DPE.
[2016-08-16 17:55:52] nip : well he should have known better then
[2016-08-16 18:03:35] zanza : lockhedge: the price countinued up to like 780 after that, if he just held wouldn't he of continued to make lots of money?
[2016-08-16 18:04:42] lockhedge : the problem was his very big position (he couldn't close it easily) and that the changes came at very short notice. but he would probably have lost much more money with high DPE.
[2016-08-16 18:05:27] zanza : he must have been long, I remember the price dropped like $8 or so after the announcement
[2016-08-16 18:06:49] zanza : This happend June 11 2016
[2016-08-16 18:07:00] lockhedge : yes he was long here and short in china.
[2016-08-16 18:07:45] zanza : so the price was about $670 ballpark
[2016-08-16 18:08:07] zanza : however 1 week later jumped to 780 peak, so I feel like if just stayed he would have made a ton of more money
[2016-08-16 18:10:05] Rado : BTC-E has teh highest volume
[2016-08-16 18:10:24] Rado : did a lot of Bitfinex customers move to BTC-E?
[2016-08-16 18:10:49] zanza : BTCE is good for cashing out
[2016-08-16 18:11:24] zanza : but there isn't a discount, so yes looks like people moved
[2016-08-16 18:29:03] ersagun : Btce does have 0 fee for a full month
[2016-08-16 18:31:34] rapidtrades : not on mt4 so kinda useless
[2016-08-16 19:05:37] Rado : rapidtrades: why do you like mt4?
[2016-08-16 19:05:44] Rado : are you used to it because of FX?
[2016-08-16 19:06:01] Rado : I don't see what is the advantage of mt4
[2016-08-16 19:07:55] SV : wtf just happen lol
[2016-08-16 19:12:52] rapidtrades : Rado: it's fast
[2016-08-16 19:13:12] rapidtrades : try it and u won't go back to this web-based crap
[2016-08-16 19:17:38] Rado : rapidtrades: where can I try it>
[2016-08-16 19:17:41] Rado : I mean which exchange?
[2016-08-16 19:19:54] rapidtrades : btc-e has a mt4...u can try it with a demo account too
[2016-08-16 19:25:42] Rado : cool
[2016-08-16 19:25:45] Rado : thanks
[2016-08-16 19:39:43] zanza : setup demo acct in BTCE
[2016-08-16 20:25:26] rapidtrades : man im gonna die with these tokens
[2016-08-16 20:25:53] rapidtrades : if i knew liquidty will be this shit i would've never entered
[2016-08-16 20:26:01] rapidtrades : they trade fine first two days wtf
[2016-08-16 20:26:13] rapidtrades : guess ppl hedged and that was it
[2016-08-16 20:30:51] 4lph4 : rapidtrades: rapid patience ;)
[2016-08-16 20:38:34] rapidtrades : it's been over 2 days now...
[2016-08-16 20:41:17] Tetsuo : it´s going to drop to 0.3346 soon
[2016-08-16 20:41:25] Tetsuo : like now
[2016-08-16 20:41:42] rapidtrades : asshole :)
[2016-08-16 20:41:44] Tetsuo : it´s lookin really bad for token holders
[2016-08-16 20:42:01] rapidtrades : men 35 cents on the dollar aint horrible
[2016-08-16 20:42:25] Tetsuo : this is actually good news for Bitcoin
[2016-08-16 20:42:55] rapidtrades : i'm more worried the complete lack of plan over at bitfinex
[2016-08-16 20:43:28] Tetsuo : don´t know what to say about that , i´m honestly stunned
[2016-08-16 20:44:10] Tetsuo : seems like that they hope that no one will do anything about it and they can just go on
[2016-08-16 20:44:56] Tetsuo : "Hey at least we created those "tokens" or whatever, we won´t say how much of them we created, but we assure you that we don´t buy them, coz that would be unethical"
[2016-08-16 20:46:25] rapidtrades : u can't even hedge these things without paying like 15-20% markup
[2016-08-16 20:46:32] rapidtrades : the liquidity just ain't there
[2016-08-16 20:47:04] rapidtrades : there's only 7 BBTC until 30 cents
[2016-08-16 21:03:12] Tetsuo : They really stated that they are working with the FBI, and several other agencies from Europe, lol
[2016-08-16 21:34:34] rapidtrades : lol btc-e the new leader in USD trading
[2016-08-16 21:35:02] rapidtrades : ppl are like Bitfinex was a scam screw it might as well go with the russian mafia
[2016-08-16 21:47:06] Tetsuo : only in Bitcoinlandia
[2016-08-16 21:53:04] Tetsuo : @Bitmex could we get thise credit default swaps on other exchanges too? i´m thinking about: - BTC-E - Kraken - Poloniex - OKCoin
[2016-08-16 21:54:46] rapidtrades : that's a great idea but i doubt the liquidity will be there
[2016-08-16 21:59:00] Tetsuo : 0.3301 incomin
[2016-08-16 22:00:11] Tetsuo : 0.05 might hold as a support line
[2016-08-16 22:01:35] rapidtrades : don't be a dick tetsuo
[2016-08-16 22:01:58] Tetsuo : k
[2016-08-16 22:05:16] rapidtrades : https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4xy460/how_is_bitfinex_still_the_1_exchange/d6k9328
[2016-08-16 22:07:50] rapidtrades : so one of the problems is, their HK office is not an actual office but one of those rent a legal address places
[2016-08-16 22:08:04] rapidtrades : so they can't get raided by the HK police
[2016-08-16 22:11:48] rapidtrades : curious comment by Todd knwon bitfinex shill account that's how a lot of killers get caught...they want recognition for what they did
[2016-08-16 22:13:55] rapidtrades : or maybe he's trying to deflect criticism that he's a bitfinex shill account by posting that
[2016-08-16 22:42:37] zanza : https://twitter.com/nejc_kodric/status/765521344616361984
[2016-08-16 22:44:16] rapidtrades : We updated this post https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinexcal/comments/4xd3sp/questions_about_class_action_lawsuit/
[2016-08-16 23:14:35] rapidtrades : can Americans sell their tokens?
[2016-08-16 23:20:02] BitMEX_Sam : Not clear what he's actually saying zanza
[2016-08-16 23:20:13] BitMEX_Sam : You could use a hardware wallet as an auth token for BitID though
[2016-08-17 00:37:21] REKT : Liquidated long on `BFXQ16`: Sell 20 @ 0.33790
[2016-08-17 00:39:40] zanza : rapidtrades: yoru token is crashing
[2016-08-17 00:51:38] tb : is there a way to display realized pnl since open?
[2016-08-17 00:53:26] tb : currently when you hover it shows realized since rebalance, and if you don't hover it shows total realized for this contract
[2016-08-17 00:53:48] tb : is there no way to show realized since last time my position was 0?
[2016-08-17 02:13:27] Rado : tb: that is Unrealized PNL column
[2016-08-17 04:58:13] tb : Rando: no, because unrealized pnl updates every settlement
[2016-08-17 05:31:47] ICR : Hi
[2016-08-17 05:43:01] REKT : Liquidated long on `LTCXBT`: Sell 1 @ 0.00628 :punch: :whale:
[2016-08-17 07:06:12] rapidtrades : PBOC sets USD/CNY central rate at 6.6056 (vs. yesterday at 6.6305)
[2016-08-17 08:31:29] martyix : Hey, I'm confused about BitMEX REST api. https://www.bitmex.com/api/explorer/#!/Order/Order_new - there is "symbol" parameter. What are the possible values for this field?
[2016-08-17 08:31:38] martyix : Thank you :)
[2016-08-17 08:35:25] rapidtrades : https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4y3fou/bitfinex_likely_took_36_of_funds_from_customers/
[2016-08-17 08:35:42] rapidtrades : u can at least upvote that shit cos ur not doing anything else ya faggots
[2016-08-17 09:00:00] rapidtrades : btc-e down over 1h now
[2016-08-17 09:51:50] BitMEX_Wally : They came back online a few minutes after you mentioned it
[2016-08-17 10:56:03] rapidtrades : another nonsense update https://www.bitfinex.com/posts/135
[2016-08-17 10:56:40] rapidtrades : not a singe number in that update
[2016-08-17 10:56:44] rapidtrades : well aside from the title
[2016-08-17 11:08:39] Tetsuo : The exact attack vector is as yet unknown, but Ledger Labs has already identified certain areas in our architecture that can be improved.
[2016-08-17 11:08:45] Tetsuo : ORLY
[2016-08-17 11:09:04] kogroken : Like, use some damn cold storage
[2016-08-17 11:09:57] rapidtrades : they just admitted that they don't know how it happened
[2016-08-17 11:10:25] rapidtrades : inside job becoming more and more likely with each new info we get
[2016-08-17 11:36:11] IgnorCZ : Bitfinex announcement now: "In point of fact, two out of the top ten BFX token-holders are in our management team." :)
[2016-08-17 11:36:40] IgnorCZ : 1BFX must be 1USD :)
[2016-08-17 11:40:51] IgnorCZ : What about this? Bitfinex announcement now: "In point of fact, two out of the top ten BFX token-holders are in our management team." ?
[2016-08-17 11:42:20] IgnorCZ : I think it is inevitable 1BFX=1USD
[2016-08-17 11:48:42] Tetsuo : i sense a small conflict of interest there
[2016-08-17 11:51:37] dobush : hi guys. why here is not Stop Loss?
[2016-08-17 11:52:39] rapidtrades : Tetsuo: as in what?
[2016-08-17 11:52:52] rapidtrades : i mean what do u think will be their future course of action
[2016-08-17 11:53:37] IgnorCZ : Why ? If they buy no more BFX, it's legal. Only changed the losses for the BFX
[2016-08-17 11:53:59] haxmb : dobush: you have the option stop market, stop limit or trailing stop
[2016-08-17 11:54:26] haxmb : dobush: mayb set order types to advanced
[2016-08-17 11:55:36] dobush : for examle: now I have a position.Realised PNL is 13%. I want position must closed when teh PNL be 12%
[2016-08-17 11:55:55] dobush : So I don want to lost more than 12%
[2016-08-17 12:08:09] laisee : anyone jnow how Bitfinex selected some BFX holders to be given shares over others?
[2016-08-17 12:08:34] habibi : BitMEX_Sam: bfx tokens has daily rebalances?
[2016-08-17 12:10:23] BitMEX_Wally : Yes, BFXQ16 rebalances daily
[2016-08-17 12:11:05] habibi : Ty, could u add timer for that in corner as in other products with daily rebalances ?
[2016-08-17 12:12:21] BitMEX_Wally : habibi: Ahh yes, it should be there
[2016-08-17 12:17:37] haxmb : dobush: calculate at what price your stop limit/stop market should close the position then
[2016-08-17 12:17:58] dobush : haxmb: thanks bro
[2016-08-17 12:18:08] haxmb : current price-opening price should be 13%, do 1/13 * price difference
[2016-08-17 12:18:17] haxmb : then go from there
[2016-08-17 12:40:21] rapidtrades : laisee: totally legal amirite?
[2016-08-17 12:40:49] rapidtrades : this company has broken so many laws they've stopped counting
[2016-08-17 12:46:07] zanza : they may be untouchable though legally
[2016-08-17 12:46:19] rapidtrades : ha...watch me
[2016-08-17 12:46:38] zanza : gl, you have lawyers already ?
[2016-08-17 12:47:16] rapidtrades : screw u how about that
[2016-08-17 12:47:22] rapidtrades : f*cking pussyass faggots
[2016-08-17 12:49:38] haxmb : rapidtrades: already looked at lawyers, will cost you more than you'll get back and might as well let someone else do it
[2016-08-17 12:49:57] haxmb : and you'll have to wait 2+ years before youll see anything
[2016-08-17 12:50:04] haxmb : if mtCOCKS is any indication
[2016-08-17 12:50:16] rapidtrades : not if we do a class action
[2016-08-17 12:50:43] rapidtrades : or other type of joint action that would be legal under hk law
[2016-08-17 12:51:21] haxmb : yeah sure
[2016-08-17 12:54:47] rapidtrades : The sole machinery for dealing with multi-party proceedings in Hong Kong is a rule on representative proceedings, whereby a claimant may bring a representative action on behalf of a group of claimants where those claimants have the same interest in the proceedings. A judgment of order given in representative proceedings will be binding on all persons so represented. However, claims cannot be brought by a representative body (e.g. a consumer association) on behalf of claimants. Parties may also choose to have their cases consolidated or heard together.
[2016-08-17 12:55:00] rapidtrades : we have a shot ^^^
[2016-08-17 13:08:23] rapidtrades : haxmb: u on board?
[2016-08-17 13:12:32] laisee : rapidtrades: dubious benefit in legal action, imho
[2016-08-17 13:13:47] rapidtrades : 36% of ur money is not a benefit?
[2016-08-17 13:13:54] rapidtrades : updated the sticky https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinexcal/comments/4xd3sp/questions_about_class_action_lawsuit/
[2016-08-17 13:14:21] rapidtrades : there's also a small claim option http://www.judiciary.gov.hk/en/crt_services/pphlt/html/sc.htm
[2016-08-17 13:14:31] laisee : depends if you have to spend 110% to get a judgement in multiple locations and then try to enfore it
[2016-08-17 13:15:56] laisee : personal experience - invested in a business that was sold without my knowledge, advice was to forget it or spend $$$$$ on lawyers and then still get 0.00.
[2016-08-17 13:16:35] rapidtrades : again that's why we're doing the class action / representative thingy
[2016-08-17 13:22:33] Tetsuo : "In point of fact, two out of the top ten BFX token-holders are in our management team. We assure everyone that we feel the loss acutely, both as a company and as individual customers."
[2016-08-17 13:23:27] Tetsuo : just let this sink in for a moment
[2016-08-17 13:30:23] Boontjie : Tetsuo: They bought the tokens, cheap cheap
[2016-08-17 13:38:09] BitMEX_Greg : A class action with a good lawyer is likely to cost somewhere between $50k - $100k
[2016-08-17 14:02:23] laisee : BitMEX_Greg: multiply by jurisdiction and then same again to enforce it where-ever the assets are held
[2016-08-17 14:04:22] laisee : rapidtrades: it sucks, but class action suits in HK are not really a thing, and there are no assets held there afaik
[2016-08-17 14:04:34] BitMEX_Greg : Yeah, you need to go where the assets are held
[2016-08-17 14:04:58] BitMEX_Greg : so the local authorities can put restraints on the accounts etc
[2016-08-17 14:05:46] laisee : once you prove ownership and hold an order against the legal owners of the assets in that location ,..
[2016-08-17 14:20:52] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETC7D`: Sell 115 @ 0.003124
[2016-08-17 14:37:37] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETC7D`: Sell 640 @ 0.003079
[2016-08-17 14:37:37] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETC7D`: Sell 146 @ 0.003081
[2016-08-17 14:37:41] Rado : We are actively engaged with efforts to convert certain qualifying token-holders to shareholders of Bitfinex and to redeeming the remaining BFX tokens through a combination of new capital and earnings. We have re-enabled most of the features on the platform and are deeply grateful to our customers, who continue to trade with and help us rebuild our brand. As always, we continue to listen to our customers and welcome their feedback, questions, and concerns. We will continue to provide further updates as and when we are able. The Bitfinex Team
[2016-08-17 14:37:46] Rado : bla bla bs
[2016-08-17 14:43:35] aethlios : Rado: this means large holders will become investors, and they will bail out the small investors.
[2016-08-17 14:44:01] aethlios : bail out the small bfx token holders i mean.
[2016-08-17 14:44:42] rapidtrades : yeah right
[2016-08-17 14:45:36] pigeons : new capital huh
[2016-08-17 14:52:05] Rado : aethlios: how will they bail them out?
[2016-08-17 14:52:17] VenCap : ouch etc sell off... damned
[2016-08-17 14:55:07] Tetsuo : https://ledgerlabs.com/team/ lol
[2016-08-17 15:05:22] rapidtrades : laisee: doesn't matter where the assests are, the company is regulator in HK
[2016-08-17 15:05:40] rapidtrades : regulated
[2016-08-17 15:06:10] rapidtrades : and that's where the majority of their business is conducted
[2016-08-17 15:06:31] rapidtrades : seee this sticky with info https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinexcal/comments/4xd3sp/questions_about_class_action_lawsuit/
[2016-08-17 15:07:49] rapidtrades : Bitfinex operates under a Hong Kong corporation, Renrenbee Limited (holder of the MSO license), which is wholly owned by a BVI corporation, iFinex Ltd. (our holding company)
[2016-08-17 15:13:03] rullwull : rapidtrades: BFX is not regulated exchange and you should take it into account when you use it, otherwise there are other options with licenses exchanges
[2016-08-17 15:14:07] rapidtrades : They are a licenced Money Service Operator
[2016-08-17 15:14:10] rapidtrades : in HK
[2016-08-17 15:14:35] rapidtrades : they are either regulated or supervised
[2016-08-17 15:16:28] rullwull : money transmitted licenses or money service operator license is only needed for banks to provide such banking services, they do not operate exchange business under any license
[2016-08-17 15:16:55] rullwull : that's why use taiwan
[2016-08-17 15:16:59] rullwull : bank
[2016-08-17 15:17:13] laisee : but they could claim funds were not lost during provision of services under that license ... just carelessness in handling client funds
[2016-08-17 15:17:32] rullwull : i suppose they could get taiwanese money transmitted license
[2016-08-17 15:17:40] rullwull : and operate local a
[2016-08-17 15:17:46] rullwull : vank accounts
[2016-08-17 15:17:59] rapidtrades : their primary business is in HK, we sue in HK
[2016-08-17 15:18:30] rapidtrades : can we get a robo lawyer?
[2016-08-17 15:18:51] rullwull : tere is nothing in HK) they used to work with HK bank few years ago, not anymore
[2016-08-17 15:19:22] rullwull : try to sue in Taiwan
[2016-08-17 15:19:26] laisee : only for criminal cases afaik, my friend runs law firm there ...
[2016-08-17 15:19:27] rullwull : more chans
[2016-08-17 15:20:01] rapidtrades : http://www.choosehklawyer.org/en/search_fl_practice_areas_result.asp
[2016-08-17 15:23:43] rapidtrades : anyone here from HK
[2016-08-17 15:23:44] laisee : there is no formal machnism for class action suits, you will probably need to fund a civil case and pay the lawyer up front.
[2016-08-17 15:24:02] rapidtrades : yeah its right there in our sticky
[2016-08-17 15:25:38] rapidtrades : a rule on representative proceedings, whereby a claimant may bring a representative action on behalf of a group of claimants where those claimants have the same interest in the proceedings.
[2016-08-17 15:27:10] rapidtrades : there are 2 other options also in the sticky, arbitration and small claims court
[2016-08-17 15:27:36] rapidtrades : small claims won't work for u if outside HK, cos u gotta attend the hearings
[2016-08-17 15:28:38] rapidtrades : u can also send a payment demand, if they don't fullfill it in 21 days, u can petition the court for liquidation
[2016-08-17 15:28:52] rapidtrades : so there's at least 3 somewhat cheap options to get ur money out
[2016-08-17 15:29:30] rapidtrades : if they try to contest your claim, then you're gonna have to hire a lawyer i suppose
[2016-08-17 15:31:54] rullwull : how big are your losses in bfx? if you don't wanna risk and trade tokens for profit than maybe its better to wait for the final token settlement what if they pay 1=1) and if it won't be fair than sue
[2016-08-17 15:32:34] rapidtrades : not that big obv or I would sue myself
[2016-08-17 15:32:36] Kalman : if they pay 1=1 in 2 yrs you lost
[2016-08-17 15:32:48] rapidtrades : not really rates are near 0
[2016-08-17 15:33:08] Kalman : anyway; what value will the $ have in 2 yrs?
[2016-08-17 15:33:18] rapidtrades : same as now prolly
[2016-08-17 15:33:32] Kalman : nice one
[2016-08-17 15:33:51] Kalman : see what you get for your $$
[2016-08-17 15:33:51] rullwull : i personally already recovered all my losses during the first day of token trades, was unbelievable volatility
[2016-08-17 15:34:16] Kalman : so you moved on; good decision
[2016-08-17 15:35:15] Kalman : rullwull: are you still using BFX? just for my curiosity
[2016-08-17 15:35:26] Kalman : *finex
[2016-08-17 15:36:20] rullwull : yes, but some a few days ago at 0.28 and dumped half of them them yesterday
[2016-08-17 15:36:27] rullwull : bought
[2016-08-17 16:45:42] zanza : rullwull: you longed tokens ?
[2016-08-17 16:45:54] zanza : and made triple returns?
[2016-08-17 16:59:53] rullwull : keep some on finex, most of them sold above 0.4, but if the price drops below 0,3 will buy more
[2016-08-17 17:05:43] rapidtrades : that's great man...tnx for keeping the support for my worthless tokens
[2016-08-17 17:13:55] Kalman : rapidtrades: sell them und you got worthless $$ ;)
[2016-08-17 17:18:37] rullwull : rapidtrades: no prob) already 2 times buy/sell them for profit
[2016-08-17 17:53:36] haxmb : rapidtrades: yeah i would be on board with a class actino
[2016-08-17 17:53:38] haxmb : action*
[2016-08-17 17:59:22] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETHXBT`: Sell 1 @ 0.01905 :punch: :whale:
[2016-08-17 17:59:37] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETHXBT`: Sell 1124 @ 0.01889
[2016-08-17 18:03:49] Bauer : BTC hit bottom, up a bit from here
[2016-08-17 18:04:46] Bauer : Kinda late if u buy now, these futures markets swing so much it seems
[2016-08-17 18:04:55] Bauer : liquidation is a bitch
[2016-08-17 18:19:25] rapidtrades : finally discount gone on tokens
[2016-08-17 18:19:52] rapidtrades : haxmb: cool man...first step would be to email them asking for full refund...see ur records for this
[2016-08-17 18:20:21] rapidtrades : if u have done this pm me on reddit for next steps
[2016-08-17 18:21:36] haxmb : rapidtrades: already did that
[2016-08-17 18:21:46] haxmb : have a statutory demand ready
[2016-08-17 18:22:31] rapidtrades : dam ur one step ahead
[2016-08-17 18:22:43] haxmb : hehe
[2016-08-17 18:22:51] rapidtrades : do u know how to fill it up? wasn't sure what to put in the a section for example
[2016-08-17 18:23:04] haxmb : ehh ill have to ask my lawyer
[2016-08-17 18:24:05] rapidtrades : are u using form 164?
[2016-08-17 18:24:22] rapidtrades : sry 163
[2016-08-17 18:26:13] haxmb : lemme get back to you on that, cant reach my lawyer
[2016-08-17 18:26:33] rapidtrades : np
[2016-08-17 18:27:09] rapidtrades : anyway that's pretty much the next step...if they try to argue that based on 'socialize losses' or whatever then we'll have to sue i guess
[2016-08-17 18:52:51] rapidtrades : I think Rado wanted in too
[2016-08-17 18:53:05] rapidtrades : Rado: did u email them asking for ur money
[2016-08-17 19:29:57] Rado : rapidtrades: not yet
[2016-08-17 19:30:14] Rado : do you have an email text I can use?
[2016-08-17 19:34:34] zanza : my wire isn't confirming arrived at Bitfinex, is anyone else having problems with this ?
[2016-08-17 19:35:10] rapidtrades : WHAT
[2016-08-17 19:39:21] rapidtrades : Rado: u sold the tokens?
[2016-08-17 19:40:10] Rado : No
[2016-08-17 19:40:29] Rado : i have them
[2016-08-17 19:41:21] Rado : zanza: are really depositing funds there?
[2016-08-17 19:41:41] rapidtrades : this isn't a legal thing yet....say that ur not consenting to having ur funds confiscated and replaced with tokens
[2016-08-17 19:42:24] rapidtrades : and tell them the sum the owe u, ask for full repayment
[2016-08-17 19:42:35] Rado : I see
[2016-08-17 19:42:42] Rado : just to have it on record
[2016-08-17 19:42:58] rapidtrades : u yeah basically
[2016-08-17 19:43:23] rapidtrades : to make the payment request actionable in court we will have to file a statutory demand
[2016-08-17 19:43:48] rapidtrades : likely with form 163...still working out the details on this
[2016-08-17 19:44:41] rapidtrades : http://www.hklii.hk/eng/hk/legis/reg/6B/sch.html form 163 i think would apply
[2016-08-17 20:20:34] MM1555 : guys when I buy something here what do I buy
[2016-08-17 20:20:46] MM1555 : This UI is making me naesous
[2016-08-17 20:20:57] MM1555 : If I take a long on ETH, do I own that ETH?
[2016-08-17 20:21:12] MM1555 : or is it always settled at the end of the month?
[2016-08-17 20:30:30] sizzurp : fuck made it to 3 btc lost internet for a week and lost it...
[2016-08-17 20:31:31] sizzurp : only started with half a btc
[2016-08-17 20:31:54] sizzurp : so cant really complain
[2016-08-17 20:42:15] BitMEX_Greg : MM1555: Hi, here all contracts are denominated in Bitcoin, so you do not own any ETH. You own the contract which has exposure to the underlying reference Poloniex ETH price .
[2016-08-17 20:48:00] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Greg can you tell me what is going on? I had my position set up to be liquidated at 0,01899, instead bitmex lowered the risk limit and the position is now still open with bigger losses. Now my losses are far greater then they would have been if I got liquidated at 0,01899 :S
[2016-08-17 20:49:52] BitMEX_Greg : I'll take a look into this for you. Can I just ask if you happened to change any leverage on the position which could have changed the liquidation price?
[2016-08-17 20:50:46] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: No I didnt (I did just now to remove as much margin as possible and instead it assigned even more margin and lowered my liquidation price even lower)
[2016-08-17 20:51:07] Tetsuo : prepare to get rekt
[2016-08-17 20:51:58] Thedude : I had assigned exactly as much margin as neccessary to get a liq price of 0,01899 instead I'm now in with more margin and higher losses.......
[2016-08-17 20:52:42] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Your liquidation price is a function of your leverage. First - I suggest look into placing stops rather than using liquidations as your stop prices (it is actually cheaper this way as you won't lose your MM). Else I suggest to up the leverage so you can have a higher liquidation price.
[2016-08-17 20:54:25] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: It seems bitmex automaticly lowered the risk limit when liquidation price came up so my required margin got smaller and my losses are compounding....No where is it mentioned that bitmex does this, liquidation price should be reliable.......
[2016-08-17 20:58:24] BitMEX_Greg : I believe this may be a function of the new risk limit process to avoid unnecessary liquidations. Can you please submit a support ticket so I can look into it further.
[2016-08-17 21:01:18] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: This really sucks, the only reason I had a higher risk limit (and thus higher liq price due to larger MM % required) was so I could have stops to buy on the way up (which would have increased my position above my current risk limit). In order to avoid those stops being cancceld in case they got triggerd (since they would take me above the current risk limit) I had set the risk limit higher so the orders wouldnt be cancceld upon activation. Instead when my liq price hit bitmex lowered the risk limit and thus my liq price went lower (since less MM % required) and now my losses are compounding........
[2016-08-17 21:04:25] Tetsuo : it´s going to get worse, get out of your position ASAP
[2016-08-17 21:06:05] Thedude : Tetsuo: Good luck getting out of the position now with buy orders being 2% below mark price....
[2016-08-17 21:06:40] Tetsuo : Thedude: ETH is on the verge of collapse
[2016-08-17 21:07:31] Thedude : Tetsuo: Hence why I had deliberately set my liquidation price at 0.01899......
[2016-08-17 21:09:37] Tetsuo : better to get out 2% below market@0.01850 than @0.016
[2016-08-17 21:10:15] Tetsuo : 0.01880 is beginning to fall, it looks pretty bad, 1 MACD turned already red
[2016-08-17 21:10:20] Tetsuo : 1d MACD
[2016-08-17 21:11:55] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: So whats the next step now? by the looks of it my liquidation price hit at the 19:45 candle on polo. On bitmex that would most likely have netted me a liq price of around 0,019 currently closing the position would mean I'd have to close at 0,0184. If I file a support ticket will bitmex settle my position at 0.019?
[2016-08-17 21:13:14] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Can you submit a support ticket? We are looking at the trade history now
[2016-08-17 21:13:23] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Aight
[2016-08-17 21:13:50] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: where do I file one?
[2016-08-17 21:17:19] BitMEX_Sam : Thedude: https://bitmex.freshdesk.com
[2016-08-17 21:25:14] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: @BitMEX_Sam Thank you! I have filed a ticket.
[2016-08-17 21:37:54] I-am-Legend : sam in is eth settlement you get a new base price & ur trade is open, is ETC the same
[2016-08-17 21:38:19] I-am-Legend : or etc trade closes at settlement
[2016-08-17 21:38:39] BitMEX_Wally : ETHXBT is a perpetual swap so your position does not close
[2016-08-17 21:38:53] BitMEX_Wally : ETC7D is a future and your position is settled and closed at the end of the week
[2016-08-17 21:39:06] I-am-Legend : got it thanks
[2016-08-17 21:42:21] whan : hi there, according to the website, ETC follows the poloniex exchange correct? Why is there a 76 difference between the polo exchange and bitmex?
[2016-08-17 21:42:41] whan : .76
[2016-08-17 21:43:15] BitMEX_Wally : 0.003028 / 0.003093
[2016-08-17 21:43:34] BitMEX_Wally : First is the underlying index from Poloniex, second is the Fair Price
[2016-08-17 21:43:36] BitMEX_Wally : https://www.bitmex.com/app/fairPriceMarking
[2016-08-17 21:43:53] BitMEX_Sam : (Highlight the numbers to get this information as well)
[2016-08-17 21:44:09] whan : ahh didn't see fair price marking
[2016-08-17 21:44:18] whan : i'll read into it! Thank you!
[2016-08-17 21:56:31] Thedude : BitMEX_Wally: @BitMEX_Sam What happend with the funding on the ETH/XBT its crazy high? Used to be the higest rate minus the lowest rate on polo paid as daily funding now its up to like 0,1588% 3 times a day???
[2016-08-17 21:57:20] BitMEX_Sam : There was significant premium during the last interval. It moves according to how the market has been trading. The indicative next funding rate is negative but that may change as the market has moved more inline with spot
[2016-08-17 21:57:49] BitMEX_Sam : Please see https://www.bitmex.com/app/swapsGuide#funding-rate-calculation
[2016-08-17 22:00:08] Thedude : BitMEX_Sam: I dont understand the premium calculation how can it reach these highs?
[2016-08-17 22:00:46] BitMEX_Sam : During the last interval, ETH was trading with premium over the index price. The funding rate increases to create an incentive to move the price back to spot.
[2016-08-17 22:01:45] omicron : BitMEX_Sam: is premium different from funding ? If not, why are they two terms?
[2016-08-17 22:01:48] Thedude : BitMEX_Sam: How much does the price need to be trading above spot price to cause this? Looking at my history this has happend constantly recently?
[2016-08-17 22:02:10] BitMEX_Sam : omicron: Premium influences the funding rate but is not equal to it.
[2016-08-17 22:02:12] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: The premium represents the current price traded over the fair price
[2016-08-17 22:02:31] BitMEX_Greg : The funding is a function of the premium
[2016-08-17 22:02:57] omicron : is premium = trade price - spot price?
[2016-08-17 22:05:15] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: No, please take a look at: https://www.bitmex.com/app/swapsGuide#premium-index-calculation
[2016-08-17 22:07:39] Thedude : Since when is this premium funding system been live?
[2016-08-17 22:13:48] BitMEX_Sam : Thedude: June 12
[2016-08-17 22:13:55] BitMEX_Sam : https://blog.bitmex.com/site_announcement/important-changes-to-funding-rate-on-xbtusd/
[2016-08-17 22:14:03] BitMEX_Sam : We sent emails to all users as well.
[2016-08-17 22:14:12] Thedude : So i just calculated in the past 9 days i've paid more then 2,75 BTC in funding fee's while on average having a position of maybe 60/70 BTC so that ammounts to an average funding cost of 0,47% a day and roughly 14% per month??? this is insane?
[2016-08-17 22:14:48] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: The market dictates the funding unfortunately.
[2016-08-17 22:15:10] Thedude : no you changed the system the old system was simple and easy and gave fair low fee's
[2016-08-17 22:15:28] Thedude : you cant expect trader to caugh up 14% interest a month...
[2016-08-17 22:15:46] Thedude : thats 168% interest per year
[2016-08-17 22:16:01] Thedude : Now I understand why my wallet balance has been decling so hard
[2016-08-17 22:16:18] BitMEX_Sam : Thedude: That's pretty normal in crypto funding, there are similar rates in margin funding on other sites especially during FOMO
[2016-08-17 22:16:25] BitMEX_Sam : If you think the rate is high, it is quite profitable then to short.
[2016-08-17 22:16:32] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: There was sufficient notice informing everyone of these changes.
[2016-08-17 22:17:02] Thedude : BitMEX_Sam: Even on maddness FOMO on polo with almost no BTC avaiable rates didnt go up this high.
[2016-08-17 22:17:26] Thedude : There is not enough liquidity on the ETH/XBT pair for this type of funding premium is almost always active
[2016-08-17 22:17:39] Thedude : not enough traders to close the gap between bitmex contract price and spot
[2016-08-17 22:18:25] zanza : are you short Thedude ?
[2016-08-17 22:19:47] Thedude : zanza: No I wasnt
[2016-08-17 22:20:03] zanza : so you were long ETH/XBT?
[2016-08-17 22:20:31] Thedude : zanza: Yes
[2016-08-17 22:20:35] micmix : yeah, funding fees are insane on all alts. if you don't need higher leverage Polo is a better option for longer-term trades
[2016-08-17 22:20:39] zanza : .1588% is the next funding rate
[2016-08-17 22:20:51] zanza : and the next one is -.19
[2016-08-17 22:21:05] BitMEX_Sam : zanza: That's indicative, it won't be finalized for 6 hours
[2016-08-17 22:21:48] jesperf : Thedude: i've found the new system to be quite profitable. i don't enter a position if I am about to pay funding fees. I see it as a way to get my taker fees prepaid for when I want to exit my position.
[2016-08-17 22:22:09] Tetsuo : in sideways markets u will get rekt in here , no matter what
[2016-08-17 22:23:23] Thedude : jesperf: @Tetsuo Clearly the system doesnt work for low liquidity pairs since premium rates seem to be almost always on. Its way to much.
[2016-08-17 22:23:54] Tetsuo : yep
[2016-08-17 22:26:44] Tetsuo : in the meanwhile, buy all the BTC, short all the ETH
[2016-08-17 22:26:50] Thedude : BitMEX_Sam: @BitMEX_Greg In the blog it states these mesuares were taking aimed at the XBT/USD pair why did they get added to the altcoins aswell? It cant be intentional to have such high funding rates on alt pairs right? Its impossible to keep positions open with daily fees being nearly 0,5% its insane. If I had know this I wouldnt have used Bitmex recently. Can't use a speculative contract with fees this high.
[2016-08-17 22:28:49] Thedude : If it was an incidental daily anomaly that occured once every 2/3 months that would be okay but paying fees this high on average is insane. You need to be making at least 14% a month profit just to break even thats not sustainable.
[2016-08-17 22:30:29] Tetsuo : +10
[2016-08-17 22:31:53] Thedude : cant believe i've paid this much fees already now I understand why my wallet balance has gone down this quickly.
[2016-08-17 22:32:32] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: We notified all users that we were putting the premium index on all swaps back on June 17. Specifically: "As a result, the following changes will be effective 24 June 2016 12:00 UTC: ​ All swap contracts will use their respective premium index to calculate the funding rate. All swap contracts will charge funding every 8 hours. All swap contracts will rebalance daily at 12:00 UTC."
[2016-08-17 22:32:59] BitMEX_Greg : The title of the email was " Important Changes to BitMEX Swap Products" if you wish to go back through your email to check.
[2016-08-17 22:34:12] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: To be honest you guys spam alot but it being mentioned is besides the point. The question i'm asking is do you feel the current system is working as intented if funding rates are this high on average?
[2016-08-17 22:36:01] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: I disagree with you regarding the spam. I can see you are frustrated here. We are going to have a review of the products
[2016-08-17 22:36:30] Thedude : From what I understand the changes are aimed at bringing spot prices more in line with index prices but if the end result is just insanely high funding rates and spot prices still being off that something is amis no?
[2016-08-17 22:36:42] zanza : XBT is quanto right? Quantos always carry a premium
[2016-08-17 22:37:31] zanza : right now spot is about .3% from index
[2016-08-17 22:37:38] zanza : I'd say that is a close range
[2016-08-17 22:37:57] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I'm not saying you guys havent mentioned it properly cause i'm sure you have its my fault for not noticing but I cant see these rates being sustainable for anyone who wants to have a position open longer then a few hours.
[2016-08-17 22:38:34] zanza : that is how futures work Thedude. You can buy OKCoin quarterlies and they will have maybe 25% premium
[2016-08-17 22:39:13] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Yes I can see that it can be disadvantageous for different types of users. We are going to discuss various methods of making it less costly for users like yourself.
[2016-08-17 22:39:22] zanza : and as mentioned, you could always play the reverse side if you think that is more profitable
[2016-08-17 22:39:52] zanza : so you would gain 14% per month or whatever
[2016-08-17 22:40:20] BitMEX_Greg : zanza: Some users are not interested in the arbitrage of it, but rather for hedging
[2016-08-17 22:40:30] BitMEX_Greg : Or other purposes
[2016-08-17 22:40:51] REKT : Liquidated short on `FCTXBT`: Buy 50 @ 0.003883
[2016-08-17 22:41:01] Muhammed : Eth to 0.016? What do you guys think?
[2016-08-17 22:41:09] zanza : well if he was complaining about paying 14% per month, then wouldn't he be happy receiving 14% per month ?
[2016-08-17 22:41:21] zanza : because its 0 sum
[2016-08-17 22:44:13] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: @zanza The old system was fine I dont understand why it was changed for the ETH/XBT contract. Fees were reasonable and predictable and spot prices were just as close to index price as they are now.
[2016-08-17 22:44:54] Thedude : zanza: It would be nice to take a position based on your market prediction instead of based on the exuberant funding fees.
[2016-08-17 22:45:56] zanza : people like to use higher leverage, and didn't like long dated futures
[2016-08-17 22:46:10] zanza : you can view the volume to see what people wanted
[2016-08-17 22:46:27] Thedude : zanza: How does this enable higher leverage?
[2016-08-17 22:46:38] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: I believe it was done in anticipation to avoid any situations like we encountered with XBTUSD, whereby the swap was trading at a huge premium yet funding rates weren't high enough to incentivise shorts into the market.
[2016-08-17 22:46:48] premjeraz : btc going to 565?
[2016-08-17 22:46:51] zanza : also, you can still use the 30 Sep contract if you prefer that type of future
[2016-08-17 22:47:04] Thedude : zanza: I think volume is mostly tied to good liquidity which comes with a product with good funding prices.
[2016-08-17 22:47:27] Thedude : zanza: There is no 30 sep contract for ETH
[2016-08-17 22:48:32] zanza : funding rate is 0 sum game
[2016-08-17 22:48:51] zanza : futures will always trade at some type of premium or discount
[2016-08-17 22:49:30] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I understand but instead it created these massive average funding fees. Revert back to the old system and make sure you keep the market maker bots going. The product currently is fine except for the fees. Also add an option in the risk limit window that avoids the engine to adjust the risk limiti and thereby the liquidity price when checked to avoid the situation i'm currently in.
[2016-08-17 22:50:22] Thedude : zanza: Yes but prices need to be reasonable (the old system was perfect) not unsustainable.
[2016-08-17 22:51:59] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Did you see the email response I sent you about your risk limit question?
[2016-08-17 22:52:06] Thedude : zanza: I dont think Bitmex intented for funding rates to become this high.
[2016-08-17 22:52:19] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: We are looking into other methods for these alts.
[2016-08-17 22:52:27] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Yes I saw it few mintions ago and I responded ont he ticket
[2016-08-17 22:54:02] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Why not go back to the old system? That always worked great, funding rates were predictable and affordable. I would love to keep using bitmex but I cant afford to pay 0.45% a day to keep a long open.
[2016-08-17 23:00:06] lockhedge : Thedude: why don't you buy spot and short the swap? change your strategy from directional bets to arbitrage
[2016-08-17 23:00:19] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: We need to make sure the system is fair for every type of user. As I said we are currently looking into other possibilities right now.
[2016-08-17 23:01:43] Thedude : zanza: For example lets say you have 10 BTC in your account and you use the ETH/XBT contract to take on a 10x leveraged 100 BTC position. Based on the last 9 days you'd be looking at 14 BTC in funding fees to keep this position open for just 1 month. Thats not a tradeable product in my opinion.
[2016-08-17 23:02:38] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: If you had reversed the trade, you could have made 14 BTC in the past 9 days
[2016-08-17 23:02:57] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I understand but how was the old system not fair? Who was being harmed?
[2016-08-17 23:03:33] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Yes I know, and If I had know I'd be getting a 14% interest rate on my leveraged position I would have been short as hell.
[2016-08-17 23:06:14] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: As I said, precautions were taken to avoid an event that we experienced on XBTUSD: a market trading at an extreme premium with no one willing to short, that could encourage extremely high DPE risk. ETH and all alt products are much more volatile than XBT, so the shift was not made in vain.
[2016-08-17 23:07:11] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: I can't say much here except to read our announcements. Apart from the newsletter, the announcements are made when important changes are done to the site or products
[2016-08-17 23:08:53] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I understand but is the current situation running as intenteded? Seems to me a product that pretty much never had DPE enabled and had cheap funding rates for longs and a nice bonus funding rate for shorts changed into a product where being long is now unsustainable and being short is insanely profitable.
[2016-08-17 23:10:48] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Seems we are going in circles here. As I stated, we understand your frustration, and we are looking into it.
[2016-08-17 23:12:06] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Hope you guys fix it, would love to go long again at some point in the future but with the current funding rates thats impossible. I replied to the ticket again btw.
[2016-08-17 23:13:05] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: We'll make an announcement if we do. :)
[2016-08-17 23:14:50] Rizky : hi Greg! on that note, which index am I looking at to see what was actually paid/debited for historic funding
[2016-08-17 23:16:00] Thedude : Rizky: Yes and overvieuw would be nice, I think most people dont realize how much funding they are paying at the moment.
[2016-08-17 23:16:02] BitMEX_Greg : Rizky: For your own positions?
[2016-08-17 23:16:21] Rizky : just in general
[2016-08-17 23:16:24] BitMEX_Greg : You can view this in your Trade History: https://www.bitmex.com/app/tradeHistory
[2016-08-17 23:16:27] Rizky : not necessarily my positions
[2016-08-17 23:17:04] lockhedge : https://www.bitmex.com/app/fundingHistory
[2016-08-17 23:17:07] BitMEX_Greg : Take a look at the indices under the Contracts Tab
[2016-08-17 23:17:21] BitMEX_Greg : Yes, or the funding history, thanks @lockhedge
[2016-08-17 23:17:56] Rizky : yes see funding history thank
[2016-08-17 23:18:51] Rizky : but for contracts, which specifically? or is it combo of the 8H's?
[2016-08-17 23:20:02] BitMEX_Greg : That page shows all the contracts. You can individually select a contract by clicking on that particular symbol.
[2016-08-17 23:20:45] BitMEX_Greg : The funding rate displayed is the 8 hour rate
[2016-08-17 23:22:20] Rizky : the last funding was -.0624% for XBTUSD I see that on funding history
[2016-08-17 23:22:43] Rizky : where can I see that by clicking on contracts
[2016-08-17 23:23:28] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I responded again.
[2016-08-17 23:23:38] BitMEX_Greg : Rizky: https://www.bitmex.com/app/fundingHistory
[2016-08-17 23:23:46] BitMEX_Greg : Enter this into the box: {"symbol":"XBTUSD"}
[2016-08-17 23:23:58] BitMEX_Greg : You will see this: Timestamp Symbol Funding Interval Funding Rate Funding Rate Daily 2016-08-17 16:00:00 XBTUSD every 8 hours -0.0624% -0.1872%
[2016-08-17 23:24:00] Rizky : (y)
[2016-08-17 23:24:05] Rizky : got it
[2016-08-17 23:25:00] micmix : BitMEX_Greg: funding rate calculations definitely need adjustment for lower liquidity alts. when MM is quoting 1% spread and moves quotes 1-2% around spot, the current funding index jumps like crazy
[2016-08-17 23:26:20] omicron : ETHXBT seems to be a bigger contract size
[2016-08-17 23:26:38] jonny : 1 = 1eth
[2016-08-17 23:27:27] Thedude : micmix: Look at the rates for the alts it seems to be around 0,5-1,5% daily funding rate lol........Anyone long any alt is bleeding funding like crazy this is insane.
[2016-08-17 23:27:59] omicron : i dont get why there needs to be funding for derivatives
[2016-08-17 23:28:15] omicron : i can totally understand it for spot/margin/borrowing
[2016-08-17 23:28:31] omicron : wtf are we borrowing here? why is there a need for funding
[2016-08-17 23:29:33] omicron : don't want to piss all over bitmex in this trollbox, perhaps i could send an email. who is the designer of these contracts? is it bitmex_wally?
[2016-08-17 23:29:46] nip : omicron: yes
[2016-08-17 23:29:46] micmix : Thedude: I agree, alt swaps don't really work as designed
[2016-08-17 23:29:57] Rizky : omicron: that's standard, not a BitMex invention
[2016-08-17 23:29:58] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: Funding exists because it is a swap product. This is similar to why futures usually price higher than spot because of interest / funding.
[2016-08-17 23:30:35] omicron : futures have a premium, they dont have funding
[2016-08-17 23:30:41] BitMEX_Greg : This has been the staple of financial product invention over the past 100 years
[2016-08-17 23:30:46] Rizky : same thing it's implicit tho
[2016-08-17 23:30:56] nip : yeah and the premium is like 1% a month not 1% a day
[2016-08-17 23:30:58] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: They have a premium because of funding due to no arbitrage theory
[2016-08-17 23:31:15] lockhedge : micmix: do you see any other solution than "more liquidity"?
[2016-08-17 23:31:42] micmix : lockhedge: yes, funding index should take into account average spread
[2016-08-17 23:32:17] omicron : BitMEX_Greg: staple of invention? not sure what that means, but can you provide a reference so I can educate myself? It would make me (and others here) better traders and we wont be pissed because we didnt know what we were trading
[2016-08-17 23:32:41] omicron : by reference i dont mean your website. i meant in the financial literature
[2016-08-17 23:33:11] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: Sorry it is not our job to educate traders how to trade. Please use google or join some trading forums.
[2016-08-17 23:33:21] Rizky : zing
[2016-08-17 23:34:20] micmix : lockhedge: current calculation is designed to keep XBTUSD 1-2% within spot and average spread is around 0.15%. it's not realistic to keep ETHXBT 1-2% withing spot when the average spread is 1%
[2016-08-17 23:35:17] omicron : Bitmex_Greg: love your attitude towards customers.
[2016-08-17 23:35:33] micmix : the funding calculations have to be scaled down by a factor of 5 at least with the goal to keep ETHXBT within 3-5%
[2016-08-17 23:36:31] omicron : Google results: No results found for "staple of financial product invention".
[2016-08-17 23:36:43] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: I'm just being honest. I can point you to a dozen textbooks or trading forums but at the end of the day we are providing a tool.
[2016-08-17 23:37:06] BitMEX_Greg : If our product was education then we would not be running an exchange.
[2016-08-17 23:37:39] Thedude : micmix: I think its pretty obvious that Bitmex didnt think this chance though. Doesnt work for alt funding spread is to big.
[2016-08-17 23:38:54] micmix : BitMEX_Greg: I'm pretty sure that funding based on premium index is BitMEX invention. I'm not familiar with anything like that in traditional finance.
[2016-08-17 23:39:07] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: Here's a free tidbit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0136015867/?tag=internationassoc
[2016-08-17 23:39:39] BitMEX_Greg : This is known as the bible in the finance world.
[2016-08-17 23:39:51] BitMEX_Arthur : micmix: Would you rather a fixed expiry future that trades at a 10% premium or discount or a swap with variable funding?
[2016-08-17 23:40:16] BitMEX_Arthur : It's same same, but if fixed expiry for alts makes it more palatable to pay high rates then that is something we must investigate
[2016-08-17 23:40:19] lockhedge : micmix: they would probably have to increase the maintenance margin and/or DPE risk will rise if the goal is 3-5%
[2016-08-17 23:40:21] omicron : BitMEX_Greg: Thanks. I will read it. See? it was totally unnecessary to display attitude.
[2016-08-17 23:41:07] micmix : BitMEX_Arthur: yes, I will take predictability of known premium for a fixed expiry contract, makes it much easier
[2016-08-17 23:41:10] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: Cleary current funding rates for alts are unsustainable paying between 0,5-1,5% a day is insane.
[2016-08-17 23:41:41] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: And I dont understand why the product was changed cause previous rates were great.
[2016-08-17 23:41:42] BitMEX_Arthur : micmix: Ok thanks for that feedback
[2016-08-17 23:41:50] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: Apologies if I came across with an attitude, but in this day and age everything is available online. I am sure you can find that textbook as a pdf somewhere.
[2016-08-17 23:42:05] BitMEX_Arthur : Thedude: We don't cater to only one side of the market
[2016-08-17 23:42:16] BitMEX_Arthur : If the rates are to high to go long, then go short
[2016-08-17 23:42:23] BitMEX_Arthur : and if they are to low to go short, go long
[2016-08-17 23:42:53] BitMEX_Arthur : If you want 33x leverage on a altcoin that can move 1% in a 1 minute candle you need to accept the fact that it will be quite expensive to trend folow
[2016-08-17 23:42:55] BitMEX_Arthur : follow
[2016-08-17 23:43:22] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: Clearly you cater to the shorts they receive a free 0,5% a day
[2016-08-17 23:44:05] BitMEX_Arthur : But we don't set the rate, it is determined by where the swap actually trades in the market
[2016-08-17 23:44:08] omicron : BitMEX_Arthur: For alts, fixed seems to work better.
[2016-08-17 23:44:09] micmix : weekly future for ETC seem to work well enough
[2016-08-17 23:44:27] BitMEX_Arthur : micmix: We are discussing whether to move alts back to fixed expiries
[2016-08-17 23:44:57] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: Liquidity is not high enough to justify the same calculation used for XBT/USD hence why the rates become so ludricous.
[2016-08-17 23:44:59] omicron : BitMEX_Arthur: oh ok. this clears things up. I thought you guys set the rate and this caused me some confusion
[2016-08-17 23:45:21] BitMEX_Arthur : If it is easier to understand then so be it, we only really care about offering high leveraged products
[2016-08-17 23:45:26] micmix : Yes, I think it will make sense. swap is not a good option with current liquidity
[2016-08-17 23:45:38] BitMEX_Arthur : when we had only the weeklies many were complaining about wanting longer maturities so we tried out the swap
[2016-08-17 23:46:10] omicron : anything more than 1 month is very hard to price on alts.
[2016-08-17 23:46:31] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: Was anyone complaining about the "old" way the funding rates were calculated on the perpetual ETH/XBT swap?
[2016-08-17 23:46:45] BitMEX_Arthur : Thedude: Do you want one sided markets
[2016-08-17 23:46:45] micmix : weekly futures are easy enough to understand. just don't spread liquidity and offer 1 contract per alt. re-entering once a week shouldn't be such a big deal
[2016-08-17 23:47:07] BitMEX_Arthur : If the mm don't get compensated for taking the other side in trending markets you won't be able to trade at all
[2016-08-17 23:47:41] BitMEX_Arthur : It's not your right to get cheap financing on a 33x long or short position on an alt
[2016-08-17 23:47:54] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: They already got compensated though? previously shorts almost always received a net fee even in bear markets.
[2016-08-17 23:48:26] BitMEX_Arthur : Then I guess the sentiment was overly positive, things change
[2016-08-17 23:48:35] BitMEX_Arthur : We don't control how traders view an alt
[2016-08-17 23:48:49] BitMEX_Arthur : Thedude: Would you mind paying a 20% premium for a weekly future
[2016-08-17 23:49:14] BitMEX_Arthur : Meaning if say ETH spot was 0.02, and the future was 0.022
[2016-08-17 23:49:19] BitMEX_Arthur : make that 10%
[2016-08-17 23:49:53] micmix : I'm sure we will see up to 20% during strong trends
[2016-08-17 23:49:57] BitMEX_Arthur : Assuming you held for a week
[2016-08-17 23:50:22] BitMEX_Arthur : micmix: Agreed we just want people to trade, if that feels better to just trade at a high premium
[2016-08-17 23:50:30] BitMEX_Arthur : then maybe the swap isn't the right product for alts
[2016-08-17 23:51:08] micmix : at least people will see what they pay right away, I'm sure 75% of traders don't understand the current system
[2016-08-17 23:51:09] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: I liked paying the difference between BTC lending and ETH lending like how was done in the old system. If many were long price went up due to higher BTC lending rates if many were short price went down due to high ETH lending rates. It made sense and didnt cause unpredictable insane rates. I dont feel the market was overly positve at that time on bitmex comparing spot to index. Seemed to be similair to what they are now.
[2016-08-17 23:51:51] Thedude : micmix: Second that if people realize how much they're paying I think most longs would close. Its not worth being long for these prices unless market is trending up like crazy.
[2016-08-17 23:53:40] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: The issue with those funding rates is that they do not represent the leverage offered here.
[2016-08-17 23:54:08] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: Trading at 3x leverage should result in a lower funding rate, because of increased margin required to trade that position.
[2016-08-17 23:54:35] BitMEX_Greg : If the funding is cheap for a high leverage, then people are going to FOMO more on higher leveraged products
[2016-08-17 23:55:53] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: But whats wrong with that? FOMO on bitmex has no inffluence on the actual market so no matter how much leverage is being used if they position is wrong the price will move against them regardless.
[2016-08-17 23:56:50] BitMEX_Greg : It does have an influence on the market.
[2016-08-17 23:57:16] BitMEX_Greg : There have been a number of finance articles in well established journals that have shown futures markets LEAD spot markets
[2016-08-17 23:57:19] lockhedge : if the mark price does not match the market price you get higher risk of DPE or liquidations at a price far away from spot set by market makers
[2016-08-17 23:57:25] BitMEX_Greg : The underlying reason they come to is because of cheap trading
[2016-08-18 00:01:06] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: I understand but current funding rates make it seem like the market is overly positve even though market price on bitmex has been pretty close to index price. The problem is that the differences between index and market price for alts are much higher then for XBT/USD due to them being much smaller markets so using the same calculation results in the fees being way to high.
[2016-08-18 00:01:10] omicron : BitMEX_Greg: WTF are you talking about? In legacy markets futures may lead spot, but Bitmex leading spot is unproven
[2016-08-18 00:02:53] BitMEX_Arthur : Guys, you can't expect the same levels of funding for a 3x margin spot position and a 33x leveraged derivative
[2016-08-18 00:03:01] BitMEX_Greg : omicron: I am stating a possibility here, that possibility being that there is cheap trading available.
[2016-08-18 00:03:27] Thedude : BitMEX_Arthur: You pay the same rate even if you only use 5% funding.
[2016-08-18 00:03:43] Thedude : 5x*
[2016-08-18 00:04:17] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: We keep going around in circles. I keep telling you that we are looking into it with alts. We understand that this product may not work for traders like yourself.
[2016-08-18 00:06:09] Thedude : BitMEX_Greg: Agreed, glad you guys are monitoring though. Would reccomend that traders receive an additional warning if the current funding rate for their position is more then say 0,2% a day so they know keeping it open is very expensive.
[2016-08-18 00:06:20] BitMEX_Greg : Thedude: One last thing, as mentioned earlier this provides an opportunity to make a killing in reversing the trade.