This is a mirror of the original BitMEX trollbox archive that used to be online here.
BitMEX disabled their archive after the DDOS attack so I have decided to make my mirror publicly available.

Well now, a few days after I made this mirror available to the public, the original archive from BitMEX is online again.
But since it is still limited (neutered to the last few hundred messages) I will keep my FULL mirror alive.

You have access to more than 50 million trollbox posts. This is more than 7 gigabyte of data hosted on a $5 server so please be patient or consider a donation

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[2016-05-09 18:09:45] BitMEX_Sam : If you want to take profit at 466.62, just place a limit order to sell at that price.
[2016-05-09 18:10:00] BTCDJS : shit sorry I went the other way around
[2016-05-09 18:10:49] BTCDJS : 460.62 no? all I see is a box with the amount of contracts and 0.00
[2016-05-09 18:11:11] BTCDJS : What do I put in there as an offset price?
[2016-05-09 18:11:21] BitMEX_Sam : `-3`
[2016-05-09 18:11:54] BTCDJS : Right. Thank you
[2016-05-09 18:12:40] BTCDJS : appreciate that you must get frustrated with noobs
[2016-05-09 18:14:21] BitMEX_Sam : No worries, we definitely have some usability issues to work through.
[2016-05-09 18:14:21] BTCDJS : would the minus amount change depending on the size of the contract? so if Im only playing with 0.1btc @BitMEX_Sam
[2016-05-09 18:14:28] BitMEX_Sam : In general if you hover your mouse over most fields, you will get a description.
[2016-05-09 18:14:35] BitMEX_Sam : No, the trailing value is a price offset, has nothing to do with the quantity.
[2016-05-09 18:14:41] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 80 @ 462.97
[2016-05-09 18:14:47] BitMEX_Sam : Google `Trailing Stop` for a lot more info.
[2016-05-09 18:15:36] BTCDJS : BitMEX_Sam: Im not familiar with financial lingo mate. Im a simple man. Im still learning this shit. When I read stuff on google I get lost off
[2016-05-09 18:15:55] BitMEX_Sam : There are lots of simpler tutorials, there are plenty of traders like you - keep searching
[2016-05-09 18:16:27] BTCDJS : But I have a Sam here to help ?
[2016-05-09 18:18:50] alchemist : BitMEX_Sam: Do many people use trailing stops or OCO orders?
[2016-05-09 18:19:04] BitMEX_Sam : Trailing stops are common, OCO less-so because OCO is API-only at the moment
[2016-05-09 18:19:37] alchemist : I don't understand why it seems you need extra margin for the trailing stop, or am I wrong?
[2016-05-09 18:20:07] BitMEX_Sam : Depends on what orders you currently have open.
[2016-05-09 18:47:50] tscha : BitMEX_Sam: haved you used arch linux? if yes, what's ur opinion about it?
[2016-05-09 18:51:13] BitMEX_Sam : tscha: Not in a very long time
[2016-05-09 18:51:34] tscha : thinking about switching - I'm a linux noob, but I think arch will force me to learn it more than ubuntu/mint
[2016-05-09 18:51:44] tscha : ok nvm then
[2016-05-09 18:51:49] BitMEX_Sam : They're an edge build, so you'll simultaneously get the newest features and the newest bugs
[2016-05-09 18:52:06] BitMEX_Sam : I enjoy Mint, been wanting to try an OpenBSD build some time soon
[2016-05-09 18:52:52] tscha : what distro are you using?
[2016-05-09 18:54:52] BitMEX_Sam : Switch between a mac & Mint generally
[2016-05-09 18:55:09] BitMEX_Sam : As long as the OS gets out of my way, I don't bother with it much
[2016-05-09 18:58:04] BitMEX_Sam : If you're concerned about security, Hardened Gentoo is worth looking into
[2016-05-09 18:58:06] BitMEX_Sam : Been toying with it.
[2016-05-09 18:58:43] tscha : bookmarked google search, will read about it
[2016-05-09 19:10:51] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 2 @ 462.46 :punch: :whale:
[2016-05-09 19:45:03] tscha : does anybody know a place where you can get historical websocket data from finex/okc? so basically historical data of every order change?
[2016-05-09 19:48:59] mjones : sweet 25x LTC
[2016-05-09 19:49:44] mjones : rofl 33x ETH awesome
[2016-05-09 19:51:39] BitMEX_Sam : We have a bunch of BFX historical data I could wrap up, tscha
[2016-05-09 19:51:57] BitMEX_Sam : Looks like BitcoinCharts has some too: http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/csv/
[2016-05-09 19:52:25] BitMEX_Sam : If you're looking for the raw data (not just ticks), I don't think you'll find it
[2016-05-09 19:52:30] BitMEX_Sam : That's a lot of data to store.
[2016-05-09 19:54:23] micmix : tscha: I have every orderbook change for okc
[2016-05-09 19:54:41] micmix : and for finex but not the raw websocket stream
[2016-05-09 19:55:12] BitMEX_Sam : Finex WS is a gnarly thing to use properly.
[2016-05-09 19:55:53] micmix : yeah, I restore orderbooks based on order flow from finex WS and store orderbooks
[2016-05-09 19:56:44] BitMEX_Sam : We lost a few hours of WS data once because the finex WS enters a resync mode when they restart underlying servers - then requires you re-subscribe when it's done
[2016-05-09 19:56:56] BitMEX_Sam : Why it doesn't simply disconnect you, I'll never understand
[2016-05-09 19:57:31] tscha : micmix: what is the difference between having every orderbook change + every trade and raw stream? you store it more efficiently?
[2016-05-09 19:58:13] micmix : I'm storing orderbook diffs to be exact. storing all order changes in the same format as finex websocket stream is not practical, backtesting would take forever
[2016-05-09 19:58:55] micmix : tscha: orderbook change + every trade is much more efficient for backtesting
[2016-05-09 19:58:57] tscha : oh yeah right, they are pushing all top levels on each change IIRC
[2016-05-09 19:59:19] tscha : micmix: do you charge anything for the data?
[2016-05-09 19:59:54] tscha : let me rephrase... how much are you charging for the data?
[2016-05-09 19:59:59] tscha : :)
[2016-05-09 20:00:56] micmix : it's 0.1btc per month per market but I'll give you access for free. send email to info@cryptoiq.io and say you are tscha :smile:
[2016-05-09 20:01:59] sleger : I bet a lot you are going to get more than one "tscha"
[2016-05-09 20:02:35] tscha : micmix: very nice :) <3 I don't need it now though, more like end of july. Just wanted to make sure there is a way to get it now, otherwise I would have started saving it myself
[2016-05-09 20:02:51] tscha : I'll get back to you then
[2016-05-09 20:02:57] micmix : sleger: good point
[2016-05-09 20:03:17] micmix : I will ask tscha in chat to confirm
[2016-05-09 20:03:42] micmix : the payment will be unmasking of tscha on the leader board :-)
[2016-05-09 20:04:00] tscha : :)
[2016-05-09 20:04:01] sleger : he can say he did it but isnt on it
[2016-05-09 20:04:27] micmix : no, he said that 2 of his accounts are there
[2016-05-09 20:04:39] micmix : no backpedaling now :smile:
[2016-05-09 20:05:21] tscha : I will only flash for you @micmix :)
[2016-05-09 20:05:46] BitMEX_Sam : tscha: The leaderboard's cached, so it may take up to 30min for any changes to be shown
[2016-05-09 20:05:53] sleger : the ROE is what / sum of deposits ?
[2016-05-09 20:06:05] tscha : not now, once I request the data :)
[2016-05-09 20:06:27] BitMEX_Sam : it's `(balance - (deposited - withdrawn)) / deposited`
[2016-05-09 20:06:29] micmix : tscha: I have the data from Jan 2015, a few gaps when okc or finex was down and one bigger gap when our cloud service was down
[2016-05-09 20:06:44] BitMEX_Sam : It's rather inexact right now, we're going to do a better revision with 7d/30d/1y once we have some free time
[2016-05-09 20:06:52] tscha : micmix: that's brilliant
[2016-05-09 20:07:08] micmix : maybe 8-10 hours of data missing in total
[2016-05-09 20:07:28] sleger : BitMEX_Sam: so if i deposit 1000btc and remove it immediately it reduces a lot my ROE even if I did not trade ?
[2016-05-09 20:07:49] micmix : enough data for backtesting and training
[2016-05-09 20:07:54] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, you're correct - like I said, not a great measure at the moment
[2016-05-09 20:08:14] j8 : i mentioned a better formula previously in the chat, i dunno if anyone saw it
[2016-05-09 20:08:15] tscha : that's why my ROE is so high - I deposited only a very small amount
[2016-05-09 20:09:04] BitMEX_Sam : I missed it, j8
[2016-05-09 20:11:40] j8 : instead of defining the base equity as the sum of deposits, you run through all the deposits and withdrawals in order.. deposits increase your base equity, except each withdrawal creates room for later deposits which don't increase your base equity
[2016-05-09 20:12:32] j8 : it doesn't solve the issue of depositing and not trading with it, but it solves the issue of double deposits of pnl you've already withdrawn
[2016-05-09 20:12:40] j8 : *double counting
[2016-05-09 20:13:32] j8 : currently the #1 by ROE has +1900%.. if they withdrew their profits and later deposited them to trade again, they would go down to +100%
[2016-05-09 20:17:51] BitMEX_Sam : Running some quick numbers right now, will have Wally confirm, but I believe just amending the rhs of the ROE calc to be `/ (deposited - withdrawn)` will make it fairer
[2016-05-09 20:18:26] j8 : could be negative though
[2016-05-09 20:19:36] BitMEX_Sam : Ah yes. Hmm
[2016-05-09 20:23:26] BitMEX_Sam : Your idea makes sense. Would be a bit more work but not hard to implement. Thanks for the input j8
[2016-05-09 20:24:55] micmix : Wally said that you are not recording margin used for each position, so there is no way to calculate ROE correctly. j8's formula is better but it will still greatly underestimate the ROE
[2016-05-09 20:26:52] BitMEX_Sam : Technically it would be possible by going through account & execution history - would be larger buildout, though.
[2016-05-09 20:26:58] sleger : I would just do current balance-(dep-wit) / max(deposit-withdrawal at any given time) ?
[2016-05-09 20:28:47] j8 : i think that might be equivalent to what i said sleger. similar anyway
[2016-05-09 20:28:59] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, that looks like the same idea.
[2016-05-09 20:29:37] sleger : j8: sorry, didnt read everything
[2016-05-09 20:33:10] Samirum : Hello
[2016-05-09 20:43:22] donchard : BitMEX_Sam: pls when does rebalancing occur in perceptual contract
[2016-05-09 20:43:55] BitMEX_Sam : Same as with other contracts, Friday at 12:00 UTC
[2016-05-09 20:46:16] habibi : BitMEX_Sam: u could add that to right upper corner as rebalance in xx days hours
[2016-05-09 20:46:36] BitMEX_Sam : habibi: That's a good idea, I need to clean up the old Settlement text anyhow
[2016-05-09 20:59:08] wurstgelee : +1 for the rebalancing-countdown
[2016-05-09 21:53:54] micmix : I like some names on the leaderboards, like Big-Fringe-Spider, also known as cengel
[2016-05-09 22:41:07] j8 : Polar-Springe-Ridge, it's poetic
[2016-05-10 00:10:35] gonfalons : if I want to take one position long in bitcoin for about two weeks ?
[2016-05-10 00:11:53] BitMEX_Arthur : gonfalons: I would suggest trading `XBT7D`
[2016-05-10 00:12:05] BitMEX_Arthur : It expires every Friday, but you can re-enter your position once the contract expires
[2016-05-10 00:12:06] sleger : so about 14 days ? since there are about 3.5 days left of 7D then buy 3 times (14/3.5 ~3) the amount of 7D that you want to long
[2016-05-10 00:12:45] gonfalons : this the 'every friday' one?
[2016-05-10 00:13:11] gonfalons : i am new to this but very confusing system
[2016-05-10 00:14:50] gonfalons : XBT -> every friday 50x -> buy market order -> quantity contracts = to amount to risk -> set margin?
[2016-05-10 00:14:56] BitMEX_Arthur : We understand your frustration, we will be launching a new Bitcoin/USD contract that will never expire, then you won't have to worry about these thign
[2016-05-10 00:14:58] BitMEX_Arthur : things
[2016-05-10 00:15:34] BitMEX_Arthur : Choose a quantity you would like to buy or sell, `Order Value` is the amount your order is worth in Bitcoin
[2016-05-10 00:15:46] BitMEX_Arthur : `Cost` is how much margin you are required to have in your account
[2016-05-10 02:07:17] jung1 : damn
[2016-05-10 02:07:27] jung1 : daohub already collect 30mln
[2016-05-10 02:07:29] jung1 : $
[2016-05-10 02:09:18] BitMEX_Arthur : jung1: I'm still a little unclear on how it works, will daohub have a coin that trades
[2016-05-10 02:09:27] BitMEX_Arthur : Or is it just a funding mechanism for the projects
[2016-05-10 02:10:07] jung1 : they have tokens
[2016-05-10 02:10:19] jung1 : its ecosystem made on ethereum
[2016-05-10 02:10:21] jung1 : https://daohub.org/
[2016-05-10 02:10:38] jung1 : already 343.97 M DAO TOKENS CREATED
[2016-05-10 02:10:48] jung1 : 31.95 M USD EQUIVALENT
[2016-05-10 02:11:05] jung1 : and its still 18 days left
[2016-05-10 02:11:10] jung1 : crazy
[2016-05-10 02:11:26] BitMEX_Arthur : so basically all eth liquidity is tied up in dao
[2016-05-10 02:11:34] jung1 : yup
[2016-05-10 02:11:50] jung1 : eth will be bullish till end of may
[2016-05-10 02:11:52] habibi : BitMEX_Arthur: https://forum.daohub.org/t/how-do-we-get-our-eth-back-from-dao-tokens/749 worth reading, its all pump to make people invest more into eth-> dao imo.
[2016-05-10 02:12:24] jung1 : yeah I think so
[2016-05-10 02:12:27] jung1 : they have no limit
[2016-05-10 02:12:42] habibi : basically biggest holders will be able to return most of their eth back
[2016-05-10 02:13:01] jung1 : but will be fun to short it
[2016-05-10 02:13:14] jung1 : I think middle of june
[2016-05-10 02:13:47] jung1 : https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FELLC19u.png&t=564&c=R9enbVd01P4SQw
[2016-05-10 02:15:39] jung1 : but kurwa, project that is made on top of ethereum already collect more money that ethereum
[2016-05-10 02:15:42] jung1 : hehe
[2016-05-10 02:17:07] BitMEX_Arthur : so how do the DAO guys make money
[2016-05-10 02:18:26] habibi : u propose "lets make bitmex 2.0" most shareholders agree, then dao starting to work on it, then bitmex 2.0 makes money, then u get share from its profit. or sth kinda that. basically it won't work :)
[2016-05-10 02:18:56] BitMEX_Arthur : call me a skeptic but there is a scam somewhere in this whole thing
[2016-05-10 02:19:00] BitMEX_Arthur : i'm just trying to figure out how
[2016-05-10 02:19:11] BitMEX_Arthur : guess I have been in crypto too long
[2016-05-10 02:19:36] jung1 : in near future will be a lot of scams
[2016-05-10 02:19:36] habibi : i am on same side as u, if u find anything legit about it, tell me please
[2016-05-10 02:19:58] jung1 : Im also sceptic on it
[2016-05-10 02:20:00] BitMEX_Arthur : so if i'm Slock.IT i submit a proposal to DAO to fund my product, the DAO holders vote, then if it passes a certain amount of ETH goes to Slock.IT
[2016-05-10 02:20:15] BitMEX_Arthur : and Slock.IT promises to pay back a certain percentage of profit in ETH to DAO holders?
[2016-05-10 02:20:51] jung1 : with all dapps projects will be same as altcoins in '13 and '14 but with much more money
[2016-05-10 02:20:58] habibi : maybe with some light changes but yea, thats the idea
[2016-05-10 02:21:22] BitMEX_Arthur : So basically i submit a bullshit proposal, get the ETH, liquidate, and go buy some hookers and blow?
[2016-05-10 02:21:56] jung1 : welcom in crypto world
[2016-05-10 02:22:00] jung1 : ;)
[2016-05-10 02:22:17] micmix : basically it's like startup investment but without any contracts or laws
[2016-05-10 02:22:21] BitMEX_Arthur : My one question is will DAO trade on an exchange, because I don't think all these people would subscribe if DAO wasn't going to trade on an exchange
[2016-05-10 02:22:44] micmix : DAO tokens going to trade on bitrex and gatecoin
[2016-05-10 02:22:44] BitMEX_Arthur : they obviously are hoping for some sort of crazy price appreciation in the token
[2016-05-10 02:23:08] micmix : at least that's the promise for now
[2016-05-10 02:23:11] BitMEX_Arthur : surprised polo wouldn't list them
[2016-05-10 02:23:33] BitMEX_Arthur : Makes sense, Gatecoin has DAO on their front end
[2016-05-10 02:24:40] BitMEX_Arthur : Man I love crypto
[2016-05-10 02:25:06] micmix : crazy times
[2016-05-10 02:28:37] jung1 : would be funny if dao collect over 100mln
[2016-05-10 02:28:41] Sam0883 : so hows the ETH tradradeing work... do my trades roll over to the next day/
[2016-05-10 02:29:09] BitMEX_Arthur : There is no expiry
[2016-05-10 02:29:20] BitMEX_Arthur : You can close your position whenever you like
[2016-05-10 02:30:11] Sam0883 : Hefty Fees tho..
[2016-05-10 02:30:33] BitMEX_Arthur : How so? Maker is -0.025%, Taker is 0.075%
[2016-05-10 02:31:09] jung1 : habibi: how's your trades going?
[2016-05-10 02:31:45] habibi : jung1: used to be better, ur ones :)?
[2016-05-10 02:32:30] Sam0883 : no sure how i was hit with such a large fee this morning.... feeling fooligh it was almost .6 btc..
[2016-05-10 02:33:48] jung1 : small profit on eth but I had a little break. Already invested some in waves and lisk ico and I have good feeling about that
[2016-05-10 02:43:31] BitMEX_Arthur : Is polo going to list LISK
[2016-05-10 02:43:41] BitMEX_Arthur : they have raised an impressive amount of money right?
[2016-05-10 02:49:01] jung1 : 6mln
[2016-05-10 02:49:14] jung1 : with only 3k investors
[2016-05-10 02:49:28] jung1 : so far officially c-cex and shapeshift
[2016-05-10 02:49:39] jung1 : but i think polo will have it as well
[2016-05-10 02:55:32] goyyin : Is there aper trading here?
[2016-05-10 03:00:03] jung1 : paper trading?
[2016-05-10 03:00:04] jung1 : yes
[2016-05-10 03:01:04] goyyin : yes. Paper. How can I enable that feature?
[2016-05-10 03:01:46] BitMEX_Arthur : goyyin: https://testnet.bitmex.com
[2016-05-10 03:02:19] goyyin : than kyou
[2016-05-10 03:12:33] micmix : nice to see at least some interest in LTC
[2016-05-10 03:12:36] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 10000 @ 460.93
[2016-05-10 03:46:39] sq : hi, what happens if i hold a contract till maturity?
[2016-05-10 03:47:00] BitMEX_Arthur : Your position will close at the settlement price
[2016-05-10 03:47:19] BitMEX_Arthur : Then you will no longer have a position, you will have to re-enter your long or short position
[2016-05-10 03:47:30] sq : the settlement price is the spot px at close?
[2016-05-10 03:47:32] BitMEX_Arthur : But for `ETHXBT` and `LTCXBT` they do not expire
[2016-05-10 03:47:48] BitMEX_Arthur : It depends on the contract, what contract are you interested in?
[2016-05-10 03:47:54] sq : XBTM16
[2016-05-10 03:48:16] BitMEX_Arthur : https://www.bitmex.com/app/index/.XBT2H
[2016-05-10 03:49:09] BitMEX_Arthur : On June 24th, the settlement price will equal `.XBT2H`, basically a 2 hour time weighted average price from 10:00 UTC to 12:00 UTC
[2016-05-10 03:49:32] sq : tks
[2016-05-10 03:49:39] sq : the underlying spot btc
[2016-05-10 03:49:44] sq : where is the reference?
[2016-05-10 03:49:54] sq : is there an exchange that you peg to? tkls
[2016-05-10 03:50:14] BitMEX_Arthur : The Kaiko BitMEX Index
[2016-05-10 03:50:26] BitMEX_Arthur : https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex
[2016-05-10 03:50:32] sq : thanks!
[2016-05-10 04:55:41] sq : are there any fees other than maker/taker trading fees?
[2016-05-10 04:59:28] BitMEX_Arthur : Please be aware of funding fees depending on the product
[2016-05-10 04:59:40] BitMEX_Arthur : they are listed on the fees page
[2016-05-10 05:01:34] sq : how do i check the funding fees for XBT7D?
[2016-05-10 05:06:36] sq : from what i see, the fees page states 0% for both long and short funding fees for all preoducts
[2016-05-10 05:13:35] BitMEX_Wally : The fees page is currently broken, we will fix it. The only products with funding fees are `ETHXBT` and `LTCXBT`
[2016-05-10 05:14:19] sq : tks
[2016-05-10 05:49:23] chromaticcr1 : is @BitMEX_Arthur here around?
[2016-05-10 05:53:26] BitMEX_Wally : chromaticcr1: Can I help?
[2016-05-10 05:54:35] chromaticcr1 : Not really, it is something personal
[2016-05-10 05:54:40] chromaticcr1 : Thanks anyways :)
[2016-05-10 08:07:16] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 4210 @ 459.54
[2016-05-10 08:15:23] sq : what is the difference between XBT and XBU? tks
[2016-05-10 08:16:46] BitMEX_Arthur : https://blog.bitmex.com/xbt-vs-xbu-chain/
[2016-05-10 08:17:13] Satah : Can someone help me on determining fair basis on XBT7D? Specifically, where to look for underlying index?
[2016-05-10 08:17:42] BitMEX_Arthur : https://www.bitmex.com/app/fairPriceMarking
[2016-05-10 08:18:17] sq : what time will today's 24h contract settle?
[2016-05-10 08:18:27] BitMEX_Arthur : Satah: https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex
[2016-05-10 08:18:32] BitMEX_Arthur : 12:00 UTC
[2016-05-10 08:18:49] sq : so ~ 4more hrs
[2016-05-10 08:18:56] BitMEX_Arthur : yes
[2016-05-10 08:19:27] sq : does bitmex intend to add more expiry dates?
[2016-05-10 08:19:31] sq : as in more tenors
[2016-05-10 08:19:46] BitMEX_Arthur : sq: No we will be listing a non-expiring contract, what we call a swap
[2016-05-10 08:19:47] sq : and settlement is in USD difference? not physical settlement?
[2016-05-10 08:19:52] BitMEX_Arthur : Check out `ETHXBT`
[2016-05-10 08:20:00] BitMEX_Arthur : we will list a similar contract for Bitcoin/USD
[2016-05-10 08:20:10] BitMEX_Arthur : everything is cash settled in Bitcoin
[2016-05-10 08:20:16] sq : ok
[2016-05-10 08:20:40] sq : perp swap is rolled daily?
[2016-05-10 08:21:09] BitMEX_Arthur : sq: https://blog.bitmex.com/swaps-101/
[2016-05-10 08:21:22] BitMEX_Arthur : Please check that out, a very detailed explanation of how the swap contracts work
[2016-05-10 08:21:56] sq : ic ok tks
[2016-05-10 08:34:15] sq : why is API order book empty? https://www.bitmex.com/api/v1/orderBook/L2?symbol=xbt
[2016-05-10 08:34:49] BitMEX_Arthur : What are you trying to do?
[2016-05-10 08:35:16] sq : i m trying to see the order book
[2016-05-10 08:35:19] sq : through the API
[2016-05-10 08:35:22] sq : but got an empty one
[2016-05-10 08:35:25] BitMEX_Arthur : for which contract?
[2016-05-10 08:35:33] sq : XBT24H
[2016-05-10 08:35:43] sq : ok it works when i key that in
[2016-05-10 08:35:52] sq : but the api states it will default to nearest contract
[2016-05-10 08:35:55] sq : tks vm
[2016-05-10 08:36:08] BitMEX_Arthur : https://www.bitmex.com/api/explorer/
[2016-05-10 08:36:18] BitMEX_Arthur : check out the API explorer, you can try out all your calls
[2016-05-10 08:36:26] sq : alright tks
[2016-05-10 08:50:15] BitMEX_Wally : sq: The API states `XBT` but you typed in `xbt`
[2016-05-10 08:50:29] BitMEX_Wally : This works: https://www.bitmex.com/api/v1/orderBook/L2?symbol=XBT
[2016-05-10 08:50:42] sq : ic, tks vm
[2016-05-10 09:17:31] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 150 @ 458.47
[2016-05-10 09:17:36] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 425 @ 458.21
[2016-05-10 09:17:51] REKT : Liquidated long on `LTCXBT`: Sell 5 @ 0.00879
[2016-05-10 09:18:00] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 83 @ 458.08
[2016-05-10 09:18:16] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 2300 @ 457.57
[2016-05-10 09:31:47] Satah : I still cannot get my head around how you calculate fair basis rate
[2016-05-10 09:32:48] Satah : % Fair Basis = (Weighted Mid Price / Underlying Index - 1) / (Time To Expiry / 365)
[2016-05-10 09:33:33] Satah : where Weighted Mid Price i take from XBT 7D and Underlying Index from the last price of https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex
[2016-05-10 09:35:38] sq : hi, when is withheld profit given back?
[2016-05-10 09:36:00] sq : is it used to offset my potential personal loss?
[2016-05-10 09:36:49] sq : or might it be used to offset other people's loss?
[2016-05-10 09:43:56] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 165 @ 455.59
[2016-05-10 09:43:56] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 700 @ 455.63
[2016-05-10 09:44:01] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 400 @ 456.38
[2016-05-10 09:44:21] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 9687 @ 456.35
[2016-05-10 09:44:31] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 109 @ 457.58
[2016-05-10 09:44:31] REKT : :btc: :soon: :toilet:
[2016-05-10 09:45:02] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 7500 @ 456.27
[2016-05-10 09:45:02] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 82 @ 456.05
[2016-05-10 09:45:32] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 10000 @ 455.94
[2016-05-10 09:49:33] BitMEX_Arthur : sq: when the contract expires or at weekly rebalance
[2016-05-10 09:51:03] sq : tks, is it used only for my own buffer
[2016-05-10 09:51:08] sq : or is it community sharing of loss?
[2016-05-10 09:51:39] BitMEX_Arthur : If there is a profit adjustment a portion of your withheld profit will be used to cover the system loss
[2016-05-10 09:52:24] sq : how would i be notified of the loss sharing? via email?
[2016-05-10 09:52:31] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 145 @ 454.85
[2016-05-10 09:52:34] Satah : BitMEX_Arthur: can u answer my question, please?
[2016-05-10 09:52:41] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 4295 @ 457.00
[2016-05-10 09:55:06] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 1010 @ 453.60
[2016-05-10 09:56:09] sq : @BitMEX_Arthur can i PM u?
[2016-05-10 09:57:07] BitMEX_Arthur : There is an indicative profit adj number provided on the order control panel
[2016-05-10 09:57:32] BitMEX_Arthur : Satah: what is confusing you about the formula we present in the docs
[2016-05-10 09:57:53] sq : hi Arthur, i think u r my alumnus. can we chat privately a while?
[2016-05-10 10:00:25] Satah : I will send you an email with the details on my calculations
[2016-05-10 10:00:37] BitMEX_Arthur : You can send me a mail to arthur@bitmex.com
[2016-05-10 10:09:02] rapidtrades : support why do I have to move the chat and close the chart every single time i refresh
[2016-05-10 10:09:05] sq : sent
[2016-05-10 10:09:14] rapidtrades : sq: replied
[2016-05-10 10:24:02] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 150 @ 453.43
[2016-05-10 10:24:02] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 4917 @ 455.88
[2016-05-10 10:24:02] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 76 @ 455.91
[2016-05-10 10:25:56] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 1600 @ 450.49
[2016-05-10 10:30:47] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 8298 @ 453.78
[2016-05-10 10:34:33] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 600 @ 452.61
[2016-05-10 10:36:57] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 400 @ 448.39
[2016-05-10 10:36:57] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBTM16`: Sell 1500 @ 486.92
[2016-05-10 10:37:03] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 216 @ 449.80
[2016-05-10 10:37:03] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 45 @ 448.19
[2016-05-10 10:37:07] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT7D`: Sell 20 @ 448.98
[2016-05-10 10:37:07] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBTM16`: Sell 665 @ 485.57
[2016-05-10 10:37:32] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 500 @ 447.92
[2016-05-10 10:37:36] REKT : Liquidated short on `ETHXBT`: Buy 10 @ 0.02088
[2016-05-10 10:37:41] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBTM16`: Sell 100 @ 483.05
[2016-05-10 10:38:06] REKT : Liquidated short on `ETHXBT`: Buy 500 @ 0.02092
[2016-05-10 10:38:16] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 2000 @ 446.04
[2016-05-10 10:40:22] germanjew : any idea why the price id dropping ~$20
[2016-05-10 10:43:23] habibi : yep, everyone is long, major players are short, no more fuel :p
[2016-05-10 10:43:41] habibi : aka margin hunting on biggest future market - qtrl
[2016-05-10 10:44:43] rapidtrades : germanjew: idiots being idiots
[2016-05-10 10:51:05] rapidtrades : same type of idiots are ping-ponging the euro in a 30 pips range for 2 days
[2016-05-10 10:51:24] rapidtrades : eventually it will blow up in their face but why would they give a f*ck....its the bank's money
[2016-05-10 10:56:29] rapidtrades : and when the bank goes under, there's always uncle Sam waiting with to give them a wad of my MONEY
[2016-05-10 11:09:48] rapidtrades : weird okc spot still tanking...rest stble
[2016-05-10 11:11:25] j8 : they haven't dropped as far though
[2016-05-10 11:11:52] j8 : oh you're probably talking okc USD
[2016-05-10 11:13:26] rapidtrades : yes
[2016-05-10 11:14:52] arbitrage001 : follow the flow
[2016-05-10 11:14:58] arbitrage001 : short more
[2016-05-10 11:37:52] rapidtrades : u first feg
[2016-05-10 11:38:17] mrp1nk : sup faggots
[2016-05-10 11:40:24] rapidtrades : some weak b1tch is dumping
[2016-05-10 11:41:55] arbitrage001 : i added more short
[2016-05-10 11:42:02] arbitrage001 : feeling very strong
[2016-05-10 11:42:49] rapidtrades : still long here but we're getting close to my exit point at XXX :)
[2016-05-10 11:43:27] arbitrage001 : what strategy you use to trade?
[2016-05-10 11:44:24] rapidtrades : mostly momentum ...some carry and arbs too
[2016-05-10 11:45:20] arbitrage001 : when one major exchange acting funny and the rest follow
[2016-05-10 11:45:29] arbitrage001 : while price here remain the same
[2016-05-10 11:45:38] arbitrage001 : just short and ask why later
[2016-05-10 11:47:44] rapidtrades : the ''funny'' is okc usd?
[2016-05-10 11:47:51] arbitrage001 : right
[2016-05-10 11:48:50] rapidtrades : idk, that place is fairly illiquid to make a call based on that....are u arbing?
[2016-05-10 11:49:08] arbitrage001 : saw finex price followed
[2016-05-10 11:49:31] arbitrage001 : down to 446 on finex that is
[2016-05-10 11:49:55] arbitrage001 : pretty confident to short when finex price went down also
[2016-05-10 11:50:54] mrp1nk : anyone already in btfd mode?
[2016-05-10 11:51:13] arbitrage001 : btfd?
[2016-05-10 11:51:24] habibi : buy the fucking deep
[2016-05-10 11:51:28] habibi : cip* :D
[2016-05-10 11:51:33] habibi : ehm, dip :)
[2016-05-10 11:51:47] arbitrage001 : nope
[2016-05-10 11:51:48] mrp1nk : lel
[2016-05-10 11:52:02] arbitrage001 : going to hold my short for a while
[2016-05-10 11:52:32] arbitrage001 : most people expecting halfing will magically make price goes up
[2016-05-10 11:53:39] wurstgelee : no, not magically at all
[2016-05-10 11:54:26] arbitrage001 : theoretically?
[2016-05-10 11:54:44] subjective : what is XBT24H price been based on?
[2016-05-10 11:54:56] habibi : https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex
[2016-05-10 11:55:07] subjective : why is it stucked at 450.26 while increases on exchanges
[2016-05-10 11:55:23] habibi : magic happens sometimes :)
[2016-05-10 11:55:26] arbitrage001 : subjective: it followed mood of traders here
[2016-05-10 11:56:21] wurstgelee : arbitrage001: u think doubling mining costs will have no impact?
[2016-05-10 11:56:24] subjective : it's 452+ everywhere else (BFX. Bitstamp)
[2016-05-10 11:56:42] arbitrage001 : wurstgelee: will have impact, just not what most people will expect
[2016-05-10 11:56:49] j8 : subjective: it settles in 4 minutes so the settlement price is a 30 minute average
[2016-05-10 11:57:16] subjective : so it basically freezes before settlement
[2016-05-10 11:57:21] j8 : it averages
[2016-05-10 11:57:39] wurstgelee : arbitrage001: how do u now what people expect? ;)
[2016-05-10 11:57:55] wurstgelee : *k
[2016-05-10 11:58:00] arbitrage001 : wurstgelee: because i was a sucker miners for longer than a year?
[2016-05-10 11:58:16] wurstgelee : well, then u know what sucker miners think ;)
[2016-05-10 11:58:21] habibi : +1
[2016-05-10 11:58:59] BitMEX_Sam : Daily settlement in 60 seconds.
[2016-05-10 12:03:20] subjective : last few mins of the avg price is really retarted
[2016-05-10 12:03:35] subjective : now instant jump of $2+
[2016-05-10 12:03:51] habibi : subjective: settlement - key word
[2016-05-10 12:05:51] wurstgelee : :D
[2016-05-10 12:21:49] BitMEX_Sam : rapidtrades: The trollbox does have position/size memory. The chart minimization does not. Use the advanced layout if you want your customizations to stick.
[2016-05-10 12:26:21] rapidtrades : BitMEX_Sam: that wouldnt work cos in advanced i can never minimize the chart, only move it
[2016-05-10 12:26:40] BitMEX_Sam : rapidtrades: You can make it very small, and once it detects that it is too small to see, it unloads
[2016-05-10 12:27:06] BitMEX_Sam : There is no minimize button in advanced because you can simply resize it
[2016-05-10 12:27:38] rapidtrades : that interface is too resource heavy for me
[2016-05-10 12:28:38] haxmb : BitMEX_Sam: what did you change with the bitcoin pair
[2016-05-10 12:28:48] haxmb : did the symbol change as well? :/
[2016-05-10 12:30:35] BitMEX_Sam : haxmb: Nothing changed on the BItcoin pair
[2016-05-10 12:30:43] haxmb : nothing changed? ok
[2016-05-10 13:04:02] subjective : how is the mark price calculated?
[2016-05-10 13:04:25] subjective : XBT 24 for example, is it a avg of rades on other exchange?
[2016-05-10 13:08:21] BitMEX_Wally : We use the BitMEX Kaiko Index
[2016-05-10 13:08:25] BitMEX_Wally : https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex
[2016-05-10 13:09:11] subjective : Thx, 50% follows BFX
[2016-05-10 13:09:52] BitMEX_Wally : Between 11:30 and 12:00 UTC (the 30 minutes before settlement) we take a time weighted average and use that as the mark price
[2016-05-10 13:09:54] BitMEX_Wally : Which ultimately becomes the settlement price
[2016-05-10 13:12:24] subjective : Thx
[2016-05-10 13:12:49] subjective : KAIKO index uses OkCoin, that is Okcoin international right ? BTC/USD
[2016-05-10 13:22:39] sleger : it's all subjective
[2016-05-10 13:29:38] mrp1nk : BitMEX_Wally: so, how is the 7d mark price calculated?
[2016-05-10 13:33:08] rapidtrades : subjective: yes
[2016-05-10 13:34:34] BitMEX_Wally : XBT24H uses a 30 minute TWAP before settlement. The rest use a 120 minute TWAP before settlement
[2016-05-10 13:34:49] BitMEX_Wally : subjective: Yes OKC international
[2016-05-10 13:36:16] TechFuture : Hi
[2016-05-10 13:37:41] TechFuture : Is it possible to trade the bitcoin price intraminute on this platform?
[2016-05-10 13:38:38] subjective : how often does XTBM16 updates?
[2016-05-10 13:38:42] BitMEX_Wally : You can trade as often as you like
[2016-05-10 13:38:44] TechFuture : I see https://www.kaiko.com/bitmex updating very slowly...
[2016-05-10 13:38:51] BitMEX_Wally : That's just the settlement price
[2016-05-10 13:39:31] BitMEX_Wally : XBTM16 is a future, so you're trading with each other in the order boo
[2016-05-10 13:39:58] BitMEX_Wally : The index only affects the final settlement price
[2016-05-10 13:40:33] TechFuture : BitMEX_Wally: Thanx
[2016-05-10 13:40:46] TechFuture : I am still looking around
[2016-05-10 13:41:22] TechFuture : Nice platform, I visited sometimes as guest.
[2016-05-10 13:41:27] TechFuture : Looks and feels good.
[2016-05-10 13:41:56] TechFuture : And nice support in the box : )
[2016-05-10 13:42:01] rapidtrades : doesn't look that great tbh
[2016-05-10 13:42:06] BitMEX_Wally : Great, let us know if you have any questions. We're happy to help
[2016-05-10 13:42:15] BitMEX_Wally : And I'm sure rapidtrades is happy to insult you
[2016-05-10 13:42:26] BitMEX_Wally : Wouldn't be a trollbox without some trolls
[2016-05-10 13:42:47] rapidtrades : oh there's much bigger trolls then me here :)
[2016-05-10 13:47:16] TechFuture : https://www.bitmex.com/app/contract/XBT24H
[2016-05-10 13:47:46] TechFuture : When I look at minute candles, I dont see much movement here neither?
[2016-05-10 13:53:47] TechFuture : Okay, this looks interesting:
[2016-05-10 13:53:49] TechFuture : https://www.bitmex.com/app/index/.XBT
[2016-05-10 13:54:18] TechFuture : Can I trade .XBT directly then?
[2016-05-10 13:54:43] BitMEX_Sam : `.XBT` is the underlying price index for Bitcoin, taken from snaps of other markets.
[2016-05-10 13:54:59] BitMEX_Sam : The XBT & XBU contracts settle on a TWAP of it.
[2016-05-10 13:55:40] BitMEX_Sam : The 1min chart for 24H does have some flat spots, that is true - on a 15m scale it more accurately captures how the price moves,
[2016-05-10 13:56:31] BitMEX_Sam : The underlying price has been mostly flat for the last 20 minutes which is why you don't see many trades.
[2016-05-10 13:57:14] TechFuture : Flat is timeframe dependent.
[2016-05-10 13:57:49] BitMEX_Sam : Yes.
[2016-05-10 13:58:17] BitMEX_Wally : If you want to trade `.XBT` the go to Bitfinex. The fees are higher and the leverage is lower
[2016-05-10 13:58:49] BitMEX_Wally : Look at the XBT24H order book to get an idea of the current price and spread
[2016-05-10 13:58:55] BitMEX_Wally : Looks < $0.50 spread
[2016-05-10 13:59:37] TechFuture : Okay.
[2016-05-10 14:21:45] viptrader : LOL some about to get liq on ETH
[2016-05-10 14:30:51] REKT : Liquidated long on `LTCXBT`: Sell 50 @ 0.00861
[2016-05-10 14:31:14] alchemist : callled it
[2016-05-10 14:32:42] mrp1nk : dump it
[2016-05-10 14:33:56] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT48H`: Sell 200 @ 451.27
[2016-05-10 14:40:16] REKT : Liquidated long on `LTCXBT`: Sell 300 @ 0.00860
[2016-05-10 15:52:55] mrp1nk : !
[2016-05-10 16:19:33] BitMEX_Sam : rapidtrades: The chart will now remember being minimized.
[2016-05-10 16:43:12] tscha : BitMEX_Sam: when I leave ETH tab and quantity field has 300 in it, then switch to XBT and trade there, then leave XBT tab (quantity field == 5000 when I leave for example) and switch back to ETH, it doesn't show 300 in the quantity field, but 5000... would make more sense to keep the ETH value I was putting in before
[2016-05-10 16:43:43] tscha : I had put in*
[2016-05-10 16:43:59] tscha : or no, past tense I think.. fuck english
[2016-05-10 16:46:25] tscha : if you trade both XBT and ETH, and you switch between them, you always have to adjust the quantity field because it takes the value from the other contract
[2016-05-10 16:49:26] tscha : I'd rather see it blank to be honest, always frightens me
[2016-05-10 16:57:37] BitMEX_Sam : :+1: tscha I'll work on a fix for that.
[2016-05-10 17:04:46] wurstgelee : best solutions would be if it remembers the last values you entered imo ;)
[2016-05-10 17:04:54] wurstgelee : for each contract ofc
[2016-05-10 17:15:11] BitMEX_Sam : Yeah, I'm going to have it remember all inputs for each symbol, but update prices each session.
[2016-05-10 17:22:32] tscha : BitMEX_Sam: +1
[2016-05-10 17:23:08] BitMEX_Sam : What do you think about saving the order type between symbols? So if you were inputting a stop on one, but switched to another that you last put a limit on, it would switch to limit.
[2016-05-10 17:23:18] alchemist : the fees on trailing stop market suck
[2016-05-10 17:24:05] BitMEX_Sam : alchemist: The fees are the same between all order types.
[2016-05-10 17:24:35] BitMEX_Sam : The only possible difference is if you use a hidden order, which more often incurs a taker fee.
[2016-05-10 17:25:25] alchemist : i thought the fees were different between market and limit order
[2016-05-10 17:25:48] BitMEX_Sam : No. The difference you might see is if you make liquidity, or take liquidity
[2016-05-10 17:26:08] alchemist : i dont understand this.
[2016-05-10 17:26:39] alchemist : i get the maker -fee though
[2016-05-10 17:26:53] BitMEX_Sam : If you place an order and it remains in the book, and isn't hidden, you receive the maker rebate.
[2016-05-10 17:27:11] BitMEX_Sam : If you place an order and it immediately executes against existing liquidity, it is a taker order and you pay the taker fee.
[2016-05-10 17:27:26] alchemist : a traling stop market, i assume you pay the taker fee
[2016-05-10 17:27:36] alchemist : what is the best use for OCO
[2016-05-10 17:28:01] BitMEX_Sam : OCO is often used when you want to place both an order to take profit and an order to stop out at the same time
[2016-05-10 17:28:25] BitMEX_Sam : For example, you have a long position at 450 - I might place an order to take my profit at 460, and to stop out at 440.
[2016-05-10 17:28:43] BitMEX_Sam : With OCO, if one of them executes, the other will cancel, so you don't risk both executing in some chop and ending up back in a position.
[2016-05-10 17:30:19] alchemist : BitMEX_Sam: I suspect you could utilize OCO with your script, the market maker script
[2016-05-10 17:30:40] alchemist : im refining a strategy on the testnet first
[2016-05-10 17:30:43] BitMEX_Sam : Sure.
[2016-05-10 17:30:58] BitMEX_Sam : You can send any kind of order type via the API - we also support OTO and OUO as well as long chains of triggers.
[2016-05-10 17:31:30] alchemist : what is OUO
[2016-05-10 17:32:14] tscha : BitMEX_Sam: I hardly switch between order types, so I, personally, don't mind the way it is now
[2016-05-10 17:32:34] BitMEX_Sam : alchemist: One updates the other. These are all standard terms, plenty of in-depth information on Google
[2016-05-10 17:32:53] BitMEX_Sam : tscha: Yeah, my thought is that it could be a bit unexpected if it switches on you. I think I'm going to keep order type static.
[2016-05-10 17:46:18] aethlios : BitMEX_Sam: Hi Sam, the new swap XBTUSD will also be a quanto but with a different contract size, testnet shows 1 contract=1usd.
[2016-05-10 18:07:05] BitMEX_Sam : aethlios: It won't be a quanto, it would be a $1 inverse contract.
[2016-05-10 18:16:15] aethlios : BitMEX_Sam: so like okcoin futures?
[2016-05-10 18:16:43] BitMEX_Sam : Yes, but a smaller size. This will work well with our future plans to offer views and input in Bitcoin rather than contracts
[2016-05-10 18:16:58] BitMEX_Sam : With $100 futures, rounding can cause a user to enter a significantly larger position than expected, but with $1 it is quite easy
[2016-05-10 18:18:50] aethlios : BitMEX_Sam: Yes I aggre, I just try to think how the contract will act in a highly bullish envi since it never expires. Could it be in a high premium for a long time?
[2016-05-10 18:19:29] BitMEX_Sam : That's unlikely due to its payout structure and weekly rebalance
[2016-05-10 18:37:44] rapidtrades : Herro! This is Wong Dong. In d market for bitcorns. Contact me at my son's email Elijah Dong at dong.cn
[2016-05-10 18:40:07] REKT : Liquidated long on `ETHXBT`: Sell 650 @ 0.02052
[2016-05-10 21:31:28] alchemist : will the futures decay ino the swaps
[2016-05-10 21:44:58] sleger : can you define "decay inTo" ?
[2016-05-10 21:46:05] alchemist : I mean when they expire will they rollover into xbtusd swaps
[2016-05-10 21:46:12] alchemist : Cause that would be smart
[2016-05-10 21:46:17] uiop : sleger: i think he means be equal in price at time_to_settlement==0
[2016-05-10 21:46:30] uiop : oh, i was wrong
[2016-05-10 21:46:45] sleger : alchemist: at some point in the future swaps xbt will replace futures yes
[2016-05-10 21:47:02] uiop : alchemist: so you mean "futures would be deliverable (instead of cash settled), and would deliver a swap"
[2016-05-10 21:47:04] sleger : but probably not this week they want to evaluate first with eth and ltc
[2016-05-10 21:47:14] sleger : uiop: no still not what he means
[2016-05-10 21:47:27] uiop : i realized that halfway through typing....
[2016-05-10 21:47:28] sleger : he means "will swaps replace futures"
[2016-05-10 21:47:44] uiop : 3rd try is a charm
[2016-05-10 21:47:46] uiop : *time
[2016-05-10 21:52:42] BitMEX_Greg : alchemist: Hi, we won't be rolling your positions from the futures into the swap when we launch the XBTUSD swap product as it is a totally different contract.
[2016-05-10 21:52:51] REKT : Liquidated long on `XBT24H`: Sell 600 @ 451.29
[2016-05-10 21:56:49] mrp1nk : it's lit
[2016-05-10 21:56:59] rapidtrades : what is
[2016-05-10 21:57:44] mrp1nk : the corn
[2016-05-10 22:23:51] rapidtrades : mrp1nk: u trade corn fella?
[2016-05-10 22:24:28] mrp1nk : i'm still waiting for the dip
[2016-05-10 22:25:01] rapidtrades : dip to where
[2016-05-10 22:25:59] mrp1nk : something around ~2880 cny
[2016-05-10 22:26:51] mrp1nk : *somewhere
[2016-05-10 22:27:01] rapidtrades : 440?
[2016-05-10 22:28:14] mrp1nk : yea, that would be sweet
[2016-05-10 22:28:46] rapidtrades : idk we haven't made a new high in 15 days now
[2016-05-10 22:28:56] rapidtrades : things are not looking good